Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Matt Barley joined the Practical Preservation podcast to discuss the work of Lancaster County Preservation Trust and his preservation philosophy.
Some of the highlights of our discussion were:
- The Andrew Ellicott House and the Lancaster connection to Lewis and Clark
- The 10 hour house on South Prince Street in Lancaster
- Trends in preservation – video Zita Cobb – small town innovations
Contact:
website: https://hptrust.org/
email: manager@HPTrust.org
https://www.facebook.com/historicpreservationtrust/
https://www.instagram.com/hptrust/
Bio:
Matt Barley grew up working on the farms of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. When he was 16, he spent three months in Kenya building a library from the foundation to the roof with local resources and hand tools. Having this experience early in life radically influenced his perspective on the world and specifically inspired him to become a designer and maker.
For his undergraduate degree Matt studied Industrial Arts, which allowed him to explore traditional means of construction and antique furniture reproduction. After undergraduate studies, he ran a small construction company making and designing bespoke residential and commercial installations and structures. As the years progressed, he was continually approached by creative customers because of his outside the box design solutions. Seeing customers delight in his creative solutions inspired him to have some formal design training.
Matt Barley was accepted to Rhode Island School of Design’s (RISD) Interior Architecture program. It was during this time that he began to leave the world of antique reproduction and began to design his own structures and furniture.
He currently works full-time as an Interior Designer at RLPS Architects in Lancaster. Matt designs and fabricates furniture and art on nights and weekends. Additionally, he is a board member of The Historic Preservation Trust of Lancaster County.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for tuning in to The Practical Preservation Podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website, practicalpreservationservices.com, for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, or SoundCloud, and also like us on Facebook. Welcome to The Practical Preservation Podcast, hosted by Danielle and Jonathan Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use, as well as future generations. Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home, educating by sharing our from the trenches preservation knowledge, and our guest’s expertise, balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character, and beauty of your period home.
Danielle Keperling:
The world of antique reproduction and began to design his own structures and furniture. He currently works full-time as an interior designer for RLPS Architects in Lancaster. Matt designs and fabricates furniture and art on nights and weekends. And additionally, he is a board member with the Historic Preservation Trust in Lancaster County. And actually, his work with the Trust is the reason that we connected to have our interview today, so we’ll talk a little bit about him, and then also about the work of the trust.
Matt:
That’s right.
Danielle Keperling:
So thank you for coming on.
Matt:
Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
So how did you get started in preservation?
Matt:
Yeah. I think probably even before I knew. I was born into a farming style that was almost pre industrial revolution, very small scale farms here in Lancaster County. I think my parents, not overtly, but we’d take vacations to Historic Williamsburg, so a sense of history placed in architecture was always ingrained deeper in me than I knew. And maybe my first overt understanding of that was at Landis Valley Farm Museum here. As a child, I took a [inaudible 00:02:22] making class.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, yes, yeah.
Matt:
And I think that might’ve been my first artistic connection to historic reproduction or preservation.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. And recreating those, they’re not lost, but those traditional arts.
Matt:
Yeah, and craft.
Danielle Keperling:
And crafts, yeah. Okay, very good. So talk to me about your work with the Trust, about the Trust, what the Trust does.
Matt:
Right. So I’m one of the board members of the Trust. I work with the Preservation Action Committee, and my specific role is I’m leading the architectural walking tour this fall. And this year, that’s taking place in Columbia. But part of what the Preservation Action Committee does with the Trust is we list out endangered properties every year. We have the architectural walking tour, and then lastly, we have the C. Emlen Urban Awards, and those go to … The C. Emlen Urban Awards are architectural awards that go to not only people that are doing work in the preservation or restoration, but also writers, community leaders, who are making a dent in that.
Danielle Keperling:
Into documenting and preserving.
Matt:
Yes.
Danielle Keperling:
So I know that you’re really working on the-
Matt:
The tour.
Danielle Keperling:
The tour, yeah. The architectural walking tour.
Matt:
Yes, yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
And that’s in September.
Matt:
September 28th, yeah, this year. It’s one day only. And the architectural tour, if you’re not familiar with it, you get a 40 to 50 page booklet that, in this particular case, we have just over 20 properties and sites in Columbia. And one of the interesting things is with … So you get that book, the cost is $25 for nonmembers. There’s also family rates. But it also gets you access into the local museums, so the Wright’s Ferry Museum. You get free interior access to that, Turkey Hill Experience. We’re trying to get the Watch and Clock Museum. So Thomas, if you hear this, we’d love to bring you in for a full sponsorship as well. But it’s just an exciting time for the town. But more importantly, I think uncovering history that’s sort of architectural, but sort of forgotten. And I feel like Columbia’s a key to American history.
Danielle Keperling:
I think so too. I took the tour that Randy Harris often organizes. I think that he’s still doing it. But I think that you can still go on it through the Mennonite Historical Society still. But it’s the Underground Railroad tour, and they start in Columbia. And I never realized how rich that whole waterfront is in history.
Matt:
Yes, and how it’s changed over the years.
Danielle Keperling:
It has.
Matt:
You just sort of assume that-
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. You go down and stand on the banks, and you can see the canals, and I would never assumed that there were locks and canals there, and that they were shipping huge amounts of lumber. It is, it’s interesting, and even for somebody who’s lived most of my life here, I never realized that until I took that tour and stood there and looked and learned about how all of these places work together. That tour actually takes you then across Lancaster County and then into Conestoga, so you stop in Lancaster City, and then you go all the way down into Conestoga. But Columbia is, it’s a gem that’s kind of been overlooked for long, long periods of time.
Matt:
And we get into that with the tour. There’ll be a guided portion of the tour. And we get into how and why abolitionism started in Columbia, very early on, in the 1830s, free African Americans. And why, of course, it was a linchpin to the westward expansion within Pennsylvania. But how and why Columbia became a center point for the underground railroads. But I haven’t taken Randy’s tour, but I would love it.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. You’ll have to go on that because it is, it’s a great tour. And it’s eye opening for what was going on in that period of history in this time. So talk to me a little bit, I know you said you’re on the advocacy committee.
Matt:
Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
The endangered properties, are you still looking for properties?
Matt:
Yes. And I think it’s an area that we can grow as an organization. It’s sort of a delicate thing putting somebody’s property-
Danielle Keperling:
Telling somebody, “Your property’s in danger.”
Matt:
Some people love that, usually the neighbors.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
Matt:
And so we want to walk that line respectfully. But yeah, that’s an area certainly for growth. The four big things on an annual basis that you can be involved with as a nonmember or a member at the Trust is the endangered properties, the walking tour, the C. Emlen Urban Awards, and then membership, being involved that way, which gets you a newsletter.
Danielle Keperling:
And then the C. Emlen Urban Awards, which is a famous architect in Lancaster City, I guess he worked outside of the city, but he designed a lot of the turn of the century buildings in Lancaster City. What types of projects are you looking for, for those nominations? I guess they have to be in Lancaster County.
Matt:
That’s a great question. And I think honestly, any project that involves tying history to architecture, whether that’s landscape architecture, interior design, or architecture, whether you’re a flipper that did something for under $100,000. And I hate to say flipper, but maybe a homeowner. We want to pull in all price points is what I’m trying to say.
Danielle Keperling:
You don’t just need the big reveal. We want people who are taking care and maintaining their properties.
Matt:
That’s right, yeah. And I love that quote that you have on your … I was going to say Pinstagram. Your Instagram, Danielle, where it says, “Maintenance is preservation.”
Danielle Keperling:
It is, yeah.
Matt:
And it just feels like that’s where it all starts.
Danielle Keperling:
It is. It is. Yeah.
Matt:
And so we’re looking for commercial projects, any sort of project that is well done with good craft, that recognizes history. Sometimes that’s a full reproduction. Sometimes that’s an adaptive reuse. Sometimes that’s getting a restaurant in a basement or the first floor of a building that’s been closed to the public for maybe 20 or 30 years, but it’s a historic building. And now people can have a beer in that building.
Danielle Keperling:
And that’s all preservation. I think that people take a very narrow approach, like it has to be a museum. I think it’s broadening more so now. But I was on Facebook, and I try not to spend tons of time there, but I go on to post things, and then I’ll see things. And sometimes I have to say something. I’ve been thinking about that myself. Should I just keep my mouth shut? But there was somebody had posted a rant about: Why are they putting an escape room in a historic building?
Matt:
Oh, I see.
Danielle Keperling:
And I’m like, I said, “Not every building needs to be a museum. And if it’s being used in a way that’s not damaging the historic fabric, and the building’s still useful, then it’s not going to get torn down.”
Matt:
Right. Right. Well, it’s interesting, that’s a great point because I think one of the … This just came to my mind, but you think of the brewery up in Mount Joy that is a historic building, an adaptive reuse, but the owners have really embraced the history of the place. And you can’t go to that place without understanding the history, but I don’t know.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah.
Matt:
And so hopefully, the escape room would kind of own that.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. I would hope so too. And I think that when people feel a connection to a place, the architecture helps set that tone.
Matt:
Absolutely.
Danielle Keperling:
Once you start to learn about the people, then that’s when you really feel that connection.
Matt:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
Things that I think about, probably most people don’t.
Matt:
Of course, museums can be done wrong that are perfect preservation, or quote, unquote, perfect preservations. Escape rooms can be done wrong, but they can also be done well. And so we want to celebrate those wins and we want to educate the public that they’re happening, so that’s why we have those-
Danielle Keperling:
To highlight, yeah.
Matt:
Yeah, architectural awards every year.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Very good. Working within the … And you used your four, the endangered properties, the architectural history tours, the awards, and then those are the things that you … That’s how you’re advocating for preservation and communicating to the public.
Matt:
Correct. Also, through our Instagram, that’s grown over the years. As with everyone, it’s kind of a good way to not only educate and inform, but it’s a way to reach out. And it’s a way that people can message us. Hey, this property really needs some help. Oh, do you know the history about this property? Yeah. So those are the big ways.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. And I think that too, people feel like they can … I think you get people who, they’re citizen historians, where they’re out trying to find things for you too, which I think is a great way to pull people in.
Matt:
We depend upon that. Lancaster has many municipalities, and in some ways, we are, I feel like this year, there’s been turnover at the board prior to me joining. And I feel like we finally have some good momentum. So it’s exciting because the history of the organization is vital to Lancaster City, Lancaster County, and we can get into the history if you like.
Danielle Keperling:
Well, I was going to say, it was a reaction to urban development.
Matt:
Exactly, yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
And so I think that’s a great way to kind of hold that mirror up to us. Are we close to, or have we passed the 50 year mark for their trust?
Matt:
Shucks. So what was it? ’73, so we’re close to the 50 year mark. Yeah. In the ’60s and ’70s, these urban renewal projects, and the Andrew Ellicott House, which is where the Trust is based out of, was scheduled to be wiped out. Just a wide swath in downtown Lancaster was scheduled for demolition. And it’s sort of like an island surrounded by a mid century parking garage. For those of you who don’t know the Ellicott, or the Andrew Ellicott House, please Google it. And if you look at it on Google Maps, you can see the parking garage had to work its way around the house. And I could talk a little bit about why Andrew Ellicott was important to America, if you don’t already know.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, sure. Yeah. I don’t know, most people don’t. I didn’t know until I was involved with the Trust.
Matt:
Yeah. So I mean, Danielle, you’re from Lancaster, but if you’re listening to this and you’re not from here, Andrew Ellicott was the land surveyor that laid out Washington DC. You can find his survey markers all around historic Washington DC. And he’s also famous for training two famous American surveyors.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes.
Matt:
Which were?
Danielle Keperling:
Lewis and Clark.
Matt:
That’s right. Yeah, yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
And my dad’s family took the Oregon Trail to Oregon.
Matt:
Oh, wow. Really?
Danielle Keperling:
And so when we go to the coast, it’s Neahkahnie Mountain, and you get to the very top of it and you can … It’s so beautiful. You can see the farmland, you can see the ocean, and you can see the mountains all at the same time from this point. But right up there is a Lewis and Clark marker that was their furthest west point.
Matt:
That’s right. And they were trained right on Prince Street in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. It’s amazing.
Matt:
Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I’d love to hear more about that. That sounds like a beautiful place.
Danielle Keperling:
It’s beautiful. It is. It is. So what trends or what challenges do you see in preservation through your work with the Trust, or just through your work?
Matt:
Oh, man. There’s so many. And I do want to caveat this, I’m one board member with the Trust. And I think if you asked all of us, we’d probably come up with a very, very, different-
Danielle Keperling:
This is one of those questions that I try to keep throughout all of the podcasts, just to kind of see different people’s perspectives.
Matt:
Absolutely.
Danielle Keperling:
And you do, you get different answers from everybody. I love to hear it because I can agree. I haven’t found one yet that I didn’t agree with.
Matt:
Right, right. I work in the architectural world, and a lot of, most of our projects are built with debt. And I think that when you build with debt, you have more of a timeline, and oftentimes, quality and craftsmanship go out the door. And I know when my wife and I do projects around the house, yeah, I think when we do things with cash, we can move a little bit more slow. I think we see globally, I think the challenge to American preservation is just the lack of money, to put it simply.
Danielle Keperling:
No, I agree.
Matt:
Specifically, I feel like the private sector tends to do things better. That’s my perspective.
Danielle Keperling:
No, I agree. Jonathan and I, when we were looking at our, when my parents were retiring almost two years ago now, and Jonathan and I looked at each other and we’re like, “Is this fun? Are we enjoying this anymore? Do we want to keep doing this?” And we’re like, “We need to scale back.” But we also, one of the other things that we discussed was not working on government projects anymore because that was not fun.
Matt:
The lowest dollar.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. It was not fun, and the quality suffered. And it wasn’t because we didn’t want to give them a good job. It’s because this is what they wanted, this was their spec. It didn’t matter if what we were offering was better.
Matt:
That’s right. Yeah. Well, and I think of it, we’ve talked about this before, Danielle, offline, but an example of when American society had more, the private businesses had more money to do creative things with them is the Ten Hour House here in Lancaster.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, yes. Yeah.
Matt:
And so this is an entrepreneur who had money, and he wanted to just think, “Hey, can I build a house in 10 hours?” You know?
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
Matt:
And I could be wrong, but I don’t feel like we see that sort of private sector architecture design and development experiments that are just extremely creative. And so that’s one small example.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah, no. And I think some of that is because of the constraint of needing the project to pay the bills. So you get that tension there.
Matt:
Right, right. It is a balance. And not everything can be perfectly craftsmanship.
Danielle Keperling:
No, no.
Matt:
Although I’d like to see a mortise and tenon and a dovetail-
Danielle Keperling:
Well, it’ll last longer.
Matt:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
It will. It will last longer. I was thinking about your idea of not just the private versus public sector, but also the idea of having cash to spend. I think that makes it more real, so then you make a better decision because you want it to last. You don’t want to keep having to do it.
Matt:
It hurts spending that money.
Danielle Keperling:
You don’t want to keep doing it over and over. Yeah.
Matt:
Yeah. I got into a phase where I built a lot of handmade Windsor chairs.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, yeah.
Matt:
And I bought the good tools, and then I was like, I saw one tool, I was like, “I think I can get the cheaper tool here, and it’s not … ” And the handle fell off.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
Matt:
And so you have to spend that money twice.
Danielle Keperling:
And that’s painful.
Matt:
And that applies to architecture as well.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. It does. It does. And project planning, where if you don’t plan it out, then you’re going to redo things because you didn’t plan for what needed to come next, the coordination.
Matt:
That’s exactly right, yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
So have you noticed trends in preservation?
Matt:
So this is an interesting question. I was trained in interior architecture and adaptive reuse. I think adaptive reuse, I love it. And I’m a huge fanatic of it because it merges contemporary abilities with historic, and there’s always a balance there. But I think I’m going to take this question a little bit of a different direction.
Danielle Keperling:
Sure.
Matt:
And a trend that really resonated with me, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Zita Cobb.
Danielle Keperling:
No, I haven’t.
Matt:
She grew up on an island in Newfoundland. And she just talks about this … What did she say? It’s the idea of a global network of intensely local communities. So the idea that a community could be intensely local and have a specific feeling. Right?
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
Matt:
In Pennsylvania, or in America, every … Not every community, but most communities have a whole-
Danielle Keperling:
Or at least region.
Matt:
A Whole Foods, but not every community has a Lancaster Central Market.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. That’s true.
Matt:
The idea of becoming intensely local. And she was, like all of us are, a small fishing village in Newfoundland. And how do you deal with the industrial revolution? And these are big questions. But I think … And how do you grow responsibly without annihilating the past?
Danielle Keperling:
Right, right. I think I want to look, research her some more because that’s an interesting concept to me because regionally, I mean, I can look at … We were looking at a project last year, and the architect’s plans, I’m like, “That looks like a Pennsylvania farm community.” And you could just look at it and see. And you can go, we’re watching TV and I can see something. I’m like, “That’s the Pacific Northwest. That’s the Southwest.”
Matt:
That’s right.
Danielle Keperling:
Every region does have its own feel, and the architecture usually reflects that. But when you get into that homogenization where every town has the same chain restaurants, you lose some of that.
Matt:
Yeah. And I think we want to keep Lancaster … I lived out West as well for almost 15 years. And I miss the cheeses and the meats you could get here in Lancaster County.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. We have good food.
Matt:
Yeah, yeah. So I think the idea that … And it’s not easy to do, especially if you can imagine a small fishing village in Newfoundland.
Danielle Keperling:
No, that’s a struggle.
Matt:
How do you preserve that culture? Yeah, it’s a delicate … And just you don’t want to make it just a tourist destination either.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
Matt:
And I think that is, that tension is sort of the heart of preservation.
Danielle Keperling:
And planning, and smart planning, and putting things into place where we’re going to not maybe develop quickly.
Matt:
That’s right. Exactly. Maybe not doing-
Danielle Keperling:
Intentionally.
Matt:
Maybe not doing the pragmatic thing. Maybe …
Danielle Keperling:
Having intentions, this is our goal, this is what we want to do. And then making decisions based on: Does that get us to our goal? That’s very interesting to me. Thank you for bringing that in.
Matt:
You can find her talk on YouTube. It’s certainly a bump.
Danielle Keperling:
Thank you. So how can someone get involved with the Trust?
Matt:
Well, there’s many ways to get involved with the Trust. You can become a member. You can volunteer. You can submit. We really do depend upon people submitting newspaper articles, reaching out to us and saying, “Hey, tell me about the history of this building.” The Trust has a huge, one of the perks of being a member is that we have a physical archive that members can come and scan documents. But also, we depend upon the community submitting information about historic properties. And we record those in the basement.
Danielle Keperling:
That’s one of the things that we encourage people to do. When you’re finished with your project, your before and after pictures, your documentation, submit it to the, we say the historical society because we’re talking to people, but the preservation, I know that you have your archives. So when we’re in Lancaster County, we try because then 50 years from now when somebody’s looking back like, “What happened? What happened here? What was going on here?” Somebody can go back and say, “Oh, this was the project.”
Matt:
Right. In fact, I was doing some research on a house in Columbia, and I don’t even know if the owner knows this, but we have newspaper clippings from before when they owned the house. And so I’m picking up tidbits about this gorgeous Queen Anne mansion in Columbia. We have the original architectural drawings, things like that. And then an interesting tidbit is, oh, the person that built it went broke and had to sell it for a dollar two years after.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, my goodness. Yes.
Matt:
Just all this stuff gets uncovered in these archives, so it’s the kind of place that you could just spend a lot of time just going down rabbit trails that are fun.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes. And then how should someone contact the preservation trust?
Matt:
I think the best way to contact us is via our website, hptrust.org. That’s HP, as in Historic Preservation Trust. You can also email us at manager@hptrust.org. And check out our website, yeah. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook. Instagram seems to be where a lot of the action’s happening right now. And we have Twitter.
Danielle Keperling:
I’ll make sure all of those are on our Facebook. Did you say Twitter also?
Matt:
Yeah, Twitter as well.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Yeah, I’ll make sure those are all on the post for this podcast.
Matt:
Thank you. Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
And then is there anything that you want to promote, the architectural tours, or anything? You can promote whatever you want.
Matt:
Yeah. Well, we are excited about the architectural tour. Apparently, tickets are available now online.
Danielle Keperling:
On the website?
Matt:
On the website, hptrust.org. And yeah, the tour is an exciting time, typically between 500 and 700 people have come out to the Columbia tour, so it’s a big turnout. Tickets will sell out, so go ahead and get your tickets now. We will only have a finite amount of brochure, booklets printed. And it is a high quality printed book.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, they’re very nice. I keep them in my office from the previous years.
Matt:
Yeah. It’s a great resource. And we’re just excited about that event, in addition to the C. Emlen Urban Awards, which are in November. So those are the two big things.
Danielle Keperling:
And if there’s anybody that wants to submit a project, I know I just saw that come through the mail. The deadline’s at the beginning of August, so if there’s any projects in Lancaster County.
Matt:
That’s right.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay.
Matt:
I can’t speak to the deadline. Ron Funk would know, our president.
Danielle Keperling:
I just opened that envelope. That’s the only reason I know.
Matt:
Yeah, sure, yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
I think it was in August, yeah. But do they have to be completed within the past year? Or are there rules for that?
Matt:
Within the last year, or sometimes two years are considered. But primarily, it’s a year.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay, in Lancaster County.
Matt:
And if you know someone in your community that’s done a lot of work to preserve and tell the stories of the architecture and the people in those buildings, please email us and reach out to us because that’s how we get our information.
Danielle Keperling:
Very good. Well, thank you for joining us.
Matt:
Hey, thanks for taking time to come.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to The Practical Preservation Podcast. The resources discussed during this episode are on our website at practicalpreservationservices.com/podcast. If you received value from this episode, and know someone else that will get value from it as well, please share it with them. Join us next week for another episode of The Practical Preservation Podcast. For more information on restoring your historic home, visit practicalpreservationservices.com.