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Gina Douty joined the Practical Preservation podcast to share with us her over 30 years of historic preservation experience. Having worked in both the public and private sectors she brings a variety of experiences and knowledge to the discussion (we had a great conversation after we finished the recording about her early experiences as a young, female architect – I wished I had kept the recorder going).
Gina Douty offers historic preservation consulting in Central Pennsylvania (and beyond) her services include:
- Federal and State Historical Rehabilitation Tax Credit applications and submissions
- PA Historic Resource Survey Form preparation and submissions
- National Register Nominations
- Rehabilitation Proposals
- Section 106 Reviews as an Architectural Historian (36 CFR Part 61)
- Grant Writing
- Historic Building Research, Documentation, Assessment, and General Design Guidance
Contact:
Gina M Douty, Historic Preservation Consulting, LLC 717-512-1032 or email: gdouty@gmdhistoric.com
Conference: PA Statewide Conference on Heritage – No Norm Dorm Case Study
Bio:
Gina M. Douty is a historic preservation consultant who lives and works in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Her undergraduate degree is from Penn State University in Architecture with a Special Studies in Historic Preservation. She began pursuing a master’s in American studies at Penn State Harrisburg, while working full-time as a Historic Preservation Specialist, then later, an Architectural Designer II with the PA Historical and Museum Commission in Harrisburg. Gina became a mom, and she took some quality time off from my career to raise her family. Eventually, she began to work part-time at the office and part-time at a home office, with an architectural firm in Harrisburg. For over ten years, she was the firm’s preservationist, then later, an Associate. In 2012, with nearly 25 years in the Historic Preservation field, she created Gina M. Douty, Historic Preservation Consulting, LCC, a certified woman-owned, small business, to assist those who desire, need, or have a passion for historic preservation consulting services. Gina later completed her Master’s degree in Historic Preservation from the Savannah College of Art and Design and was fortunate to receive the Graduate Achievement award as Preservationist of the Year for her graduating class.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for tuning in to the Practical Preservation Podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website, PracticalPreservationServices.com, for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, or SoundCloud, and also like us on Facebook.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Practical Preservation Podcast, hosted by Danielle and Jonathan Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family-owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use as well as future generations.
Speaker 1:
Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home, educating by sharing our from-the-trenches preservation knowledge and our guests’ expertise, balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character, and beauty of your period home.
Danielle Keperling:
You’re good. Okay. Today on the Practical Preservation Podcast, we have Gina Douty. She is a historic preservation consultant who lives and works in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Her undergraduate degree is from Penn State University in architecture with a special study in historic preservation. She then began pursuing a master’s in American Studies at Penn State University Harrisburg while working full time as a historic preservation specialist, then as an Architectural Designer II with the Pennsylvania Historic and Museum Commission in Harrisburg.
Danielle Keperling:
She became a mom and took some quality time off from her career to raise her family. Then she began to work part time at an office and part time from a home office with an architectural firm in Harrisburg. For over 10 years, she was the firm’s preservationist, and then later an associate.
Danielle Keperling:
In 2012, with nearly 25 years in the historic preservation field, she created Gina M. Douty, Historic Preservation Consulting, LLC, a certified woman-owned small business to assist those who desire, need, or have a passion for historic preservation consulting services. She later completed her master’s in Historic Preservation from the Savannah College of Art and Design, and was fortunate to receive a graduate achievement award as Preservationist of the Year for her graduating class.
Danielle Keperling:
Her services include experience with historic preservation and rehabilitation projects, both commercial and residential, and a working knowledge of the Secretary of Interior’s standards for historic preservation. Work is provided and performed for developers, architectural and engineering firms, historical societies, preservation groups, municipalities, individual homeowners, and others who seek historic preservation consulting for the federal and state historic rehabilitation tax credit application and submissions, the PA historic research survey forms preparation and submissions, national register nominations, rehabilitation proposals, Section 106 reviews. As an architectural historian, grant writing and historic building research documentation assessment, and general design guidance.
Danielle Keperling:
Thank you, Gina, for joining us today.
Gina Douty:
Thank you.
Danielle Keperling:
Actually, reading that list, I was telling you before we got started recording that we had our seminar this past weekend. Somebody had asked me about how to get on the National Register, and somebody else had asked about building research. I have a couple of people I will refer to you.
Danielle Keperling:
Then I was thinking about … I think the first time that I met you, I sat through a case study that you did of a project that you did for the … Was it the [Reading High School 00:04:09]?
Gina Douty:
Yes. That was with the architectural firm.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. I just love your Christmas cards.
Gina Douty:
We try to be unique.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. I’m glad that you could join us today. Tell me, how did you get started in preservation?
Gina Douty:
The reason I got into architecture school was for preservation. I think since I was about 12 years old, I’ve always enjoyed historic buildings, particularly in the Harrisburg region. Had always told my parents, “One of these days,” that I would fix up the buildings that need to be fixed up in Harrisburg. I’m glad to be doing exactly that in other cities as well, but in Harrisburg too.
Danielle Keperling:
Very cutting edge and visionary at the time.
Gina Douty:
Yes. [inaudible 00:04:59]
Danielle Keperling:
Why did you choose preservation? Or was it because you wanted to help restore those buildings, and that was a way to do it?
Gina Douty:
I think so. I think it was just a calling. Then, like I said, I always tell people that I Forrest Gumped my way through this profession. As I got into architecture, then I met people who had more preservation-minded backgrounds and were able to guide me and mentor me, one being an advisor I had at Penn State, Denson Groenendaal, who then hired me for a work-study program rather than going to study abroad.
Gina Douty:
Then I began working with him, learning how to document buildings. Then I got an internship with the PHMC as a summer intern with the architecture and conservation department. From there, I became, the following summer, a program coordinator at a historic site. Everything just started to snowball into it, and meet people in the preservation field. Then eventually came back around to the Pennsylvania Historical Museum Commission as an architecture designer for them.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Very good. Your role with them, was that working mostly like an architect, writing specifications for-
Gina Douty:
Specs and drawings, and mostly for the museums and sites around Pennsylvania. That’s what I have done.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Very good. Tell me about your business. What services do you offer? Who’s your client … I know we talked about that a little bit in the introduction, but tell us about the types of projects you do and what kind of work that you do.
Gina Douty:
Okay. In March we celebrated seven years of the business. It is mostly me running it, and then I hire a lot of great independent contractors who will either help me with some of the assessments, help me with marketing, help me with the photographs, help me with the architectural pieces. It’s been just a nice little dichotomy of that.
Gina Douty:
Mostly our bread and butter is more the federal and state historic tax credits, the preparations of those, and the submissions. We do do national registries reviews, as well as a nominations and preparing all that paperwork. We’d love to get into the … When we do just deed searches and prepare that type of stuff for folks, as well as those who are asking for design work too, that we do some small additions and reconfiguring of historic buildings, that type of thing.
Gina Douty:
Each one of them has a different piece to how preservation is thought of, if it’s, like I say, the capital P or the lowercase p, however we get involved in the dynamics of it and the guidelines that we have to follow.
Danielle Keperling:
I think that that’s a great way to look at it, because the seminar that we just did this past weekend, one of the first things I said was, “Not every building has to be a museum.” They’re still worthy of being preserved, but they have to work for how you live and how you’re building … As the building owner, you’re the steward. You have to guide the process.
Gina Douty:
That’s correct. That is. And, not every old building. Some old buildings are just old. Not every old building can be saved. But the ones that we are saving, like you said, there’s guidelines for when you’re using certain tools, such as grants and tax credits, that you have to follow. Then there’s a little bit of leeway that you have in terms of what you’re considering as preservation when you’re not following those, and you’re doing it, maybe, in the private sector, or residential.
Danielle Keperling:
Or more like an adaptive reuse, or something like that.
Gina Douty:
Adaptive reuse, yeah. Sympathetic additions, that type of thing. We try to guide the folks as well as … I think what I call preservation sometimes is more education. Preservation is constantly educating, whether it’s the client, or the end users, or those wanting to get into the business, as how we go about this.
Gina Douty:
Whenever I hear folks saying about that they want to preserve some … Or they want to get into this business, let’s say, I always say to them that we are always, like you said, people that are the stewards. We then are also stewards as well for them, and we’re only there for them because there’s some type of money involved or some type of a project for us.
Gina Douty:
If you thought you were getting into preservation to just fix up the old buildings, unless you’re a developer or you have deep pockets, you are going to rely on a lot of other people who want to make this thing happen too. It’s your job as the preservationist to help guide that as well as educate them as to how these guidelines and how these steps all have to be followed.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. That is funny, because a couple of weeks ago we got a call from somebody who was like, “You get paid to do this?” I’m like, “Yes, we do.”
Gina Douty:
I know. I try not to tell too many people I would do it for free, as it’s my passion. However, it’s nice to be paid for it as well. Then, at the end of a busy day, it’s nice to be exhausted just because you loved what you were doing and not from, just, a day-to-day grind.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. I agree. On the tax credits, if that’s the majority of … You’re working mostly with developers or people who have businesses in their older buildings.
Gina Douty:
Yeah.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Then do you … I’m just trying to think about the other services that you discussed. When you’re doing the architectural work, is that something that you do because you have the skills? Is that your main focus? Is that something you want to promote, I guess is what I’m asking?
Gina Douty:
Sure.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay.
Gina Douty:
We have a lot of folks that come by and say they’d like … Mostly with preservation. That’s what I like about it. It’s not just starting from a blank lot, it’s a building that’s sat there. Others came before. I think of the builders who built it 100 years ago, and stuff. What can we do to salvage that into something that’s viable and usable in the community or for those end users? We will take those on.
Gina Douty:
I usually bring, then, an architectural assistant with me so that while I’m pulling … If they’re doing the other pieces that go with it …
Danielle Keperling:
That you can work well together?
Gina Douty:
That I can work well together. Or it’s just … The younger folks are … I call them younger. Those just into the business, coming out of schools now, technology is just going in leaps and bounds than when I had done it.
Gina Douty:
The old maps are always the old maps. The way you document and how you go for the information is always there, except maybe now we’re looking at a computer screen. But, how to put it all together and how to put it together in a faster and an easier way for clients to look at is changing. It’s always good to hear what the younger folks just quickly out of architecture school and preservation schools are contributing to that part, because that’s just how they’re learning it.
Gina Douty:
Where, 30 years ago when I did it, it was just pen and paper, or, like I tell people, quill. We were making trips to go to all the repositories to look for things. Now a lot of times these things are …
Danielle Keperling:
You can find them online?
Gina Douty:
When we do a deed search, a lot of times we can do them online. But, you still have to know how to use them, and still have to know how to put them together. I like to take more of the mentor role in teaching folks how to do that, and then we can use their experience with the technology end. [crosstalk 00:12:56]
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. That sounds like a great sharing of information both ways. Yeah. I think that sounds like a win-win.
Danielle Keperling:
What do you wish that you knew when you started that you know now, either about preservation or about your business? You can take that however you want.
Gina Douty:
I think, as I started it, and I was fortunate enough with working to get into private sector after I was in the state sector, is learning more of how a business runs. Maybe not even taking into consideration preservation so much, and a little bit of architecture as well, but just learning how … Making sure you knew how invoicing works, and promotion, and keeping on top of the businessy sort of things.
Gina Douty:
The marketing aspects, for one thing, where you have to, like I said, pull … You mentioned our Christmas cards. I have a wonderful friend, [Jamie Pulinowski 00:13:59], who actually lives in Colorado, but I met her here in Pennsylvania. The great thing about technology is we stay in touch, and just can … You find good people. Just send it to her, and she does all of our marketing. Just can explain to her what my concept is, and she has it. Make sure you get that marketing piece, though, to the right people.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes. You have to target it.
Gina Douty:
You have to target it. You know that from your business. I think it’s just a matter of making sure you understand how the business operates, and then gear it to the businesses of folks that … It’s like the developers, but the end users and how they’re working.
Danielle Keperling:
I would think, too, I know from my experiences, when you’re starting, you don’t realize how targeted your marketing has to be, because … You think, “The whole world needs to know this,” but really the whole world doesn’t care.
Gina Douty:
No. For a long time I didn’t have a website. Then it was like, “Gina, you need a website.” Right now I still don’t do Facebook or anything like that, because I’m like, it’s almost … We’re very specific to who we got. A lot of my business is repeat clients and word of mouth.
Gina Douty:
Then the next step is to try not to grow so fast that you have the growing pains of that, where you’re putting it out there to too many folks that you can’t accommodate it, and then you have to try to keep juggling the workload. I think sometimes it’s trying to find that balance.
Gina Douty:
Now, as a certified WBE, my next step is to be a little more available to those who want to go after federal jobs and state jobs, but not be so available that all I’m doing is working on proposals. Either that, or, if we get them, I’m scrambling around to try to find the right people to take this.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. Yeah. There is that point. Then it’s going to become a job for you, and you’re not going to like it. Yeah. Definitely. What do you see as the biggest challenge in preservation?
Gina Douty:
There’s always the money that’s not available, I think, is always for those people looking for it. Or how, maybe … It has to be strict, the guidelines to follow, in terms of even getting the money, the stipulations. Maybe you have to be a nonprofit. There’s not as much out there for profits. When there is, there’s the tax credits, but then they have their guidelines.
Gina Douty:
I understand why. I always try to say to people, those folks who are policing the money, it’s because they’re speaking for the building. The building might be sitting here another 100 years from now, but we necessarily won’t be. There’s always advocates out there who are expressly just there for the build environment. We have to respect that, yes, it’s your building that you bought, and you can do alterations as you see fit, but there’s certain pieces that, if you can maintain the character, the character of space or the character of what’s the material, that’s important.
Gina Douty:
Sometimes those are, I think, challenging. Also, like I said, the education of folks … I have sometimes some folks who come around, like I said, not mean-spirited, but in the 11th hour asking for stuff that needs to be done when it should have maybe been done 12 months ago.
Danielle Keperling:
Right, and in the beginning stage.
Gina Douty:
Yes.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. You see that, I’m sure, in projects, not just front-end work that, that is the front-end work that needs to be done, but people who want to do the pretty stuff first and then they have to tear it all apart because they didn’t do the …
Gina Douty:
Or they say, “Forget that. We’re not doing it. We’ll just do it our way.” That’s fine. Then I think that there’s a lot of preservation out there in all types of ways, whether people think preserving is just tearing down a barn and reusing the wood. There’s some form of preservation there as well. We have the diehards and the nasty nickname of the hysterical preservationist coming on that.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. You do. I think that those people also have a role. The building that’s right across from us, that was slated for demolition. The stables. Now they’ve reused it, and it’s a great space. But when there were people starting to speak up about it, I’m like, “I don’t know if I would have fought that battle.” I don’t know if that’s the hill I would have wanted to die on.
Gina Douty:
Right. You’re correct. Yeah. There’s some people who specifically get into preservation to be advocates. I’ve often said to folks, if I’ve been called to do it I try to do my part, but I didn’t become a preservationist to preserve Independence Hall. There’s specific people for that.
Gina Douty:
I think when I first got into it, probably 30 years ago, it was more of that museum type, “Let’s restore it back to its original nature.” But, as we have more and more buildings that are still around from the early 1900s, or the 1930s, or what have you, I see it more now as just rehabilitation. Like you said, the adaptive reuses. I think I’m more geared for that type of industry, as opposed to maybe more of that museum-quality restoration with the brush and the going into the deep history of something. I think you’re right. There’s all different ways.
Danielle Keperling:
There are. Yeah.
Gina Douty:
There’s different hills to die … Or you pick your hill to die.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
Gina Douty:
You die once on the hill.
Danielle Keperling:
Do you see any trends in preservation?
Gina Douty:
I think that in order to follow the trends, I follow them more if I see that … If more monies are being available and there’s more grants out there. Then, early on in my career, I learned how to write grants, especially those that are just coming out, so that there can be a little bit more … There’s a more sympathetic nature of people who are taking on for the very first time, the beta group. Then follow the trends. If I see more developers saying, “I have a need for this,” then learning a little bit about those particular needs. I try to follow the trends in that respect, I think, as far as preservation goes.
Gina Douty:
Then seek out those individuals who do the work, such as the repointing of the bricks, the masons, the craftsman who do know the wood, the plasterers. Then seek those type of individuals out, restoring windows, rather than me having to become an expert in the field of that. Maybe just making sure I know where to go for those.
Danielle Keperling:
For those. Yes.
Gina Douty:
As far as trends in that respect goes, I think it’s, like I said, for the 30 years, watching it go more into the rehabilitation end of things, and how that works with … Then, like I said, going into tax credits.
Gina Douty:
Now we see people wanting to put additions on, but not just glob an addition on, they want to make it … We try not to blend it as much as we … Like I said, it’s a sympathetic addition. That addition becomes history as well.
Danielle Keperling:
Of its own. Yeah. Okay. Are there any things that you do to keep up with the trends, or you just watch things as you encounter them?
Gina Douty:
I read up a little bit as I encountered it. As I said, sometimes with the trends, it’s always with technology, which has taken over everybody’s profession.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. We had a woman from Adventures in Preservation on the podcast a few months ago. She was talking about … I don’t even know how they do it. The 3D modeling, but just on the computer, of buildings that weren’t there or that aren’t there anymore. They were actually doing that as a vacation that you can go on later this year in Virginia. I’m like, “I might want to go down and do that,” because I’ve never even seen that done. It sounded interesting.
Gina Douty:
That trend of being able to do it 3D … I myself don’t do it, but have folks who can then explain it even more to a client to understand and get excited. I think no matter when you do or what you do for architecture or preservation, the thing is to get as excited with your clients, if not more, because they’re actually allowing you to do the thing you love.
Gina Douty:
You start showing them how much you love their building, and how much you love their project. But finding a way to show them that it makes sense to them, and that they can trust you to hand this over and the hard money that they’ve earned to make the vision in their head come alive. That’s architecture, but I just take it one step further with the historic piece.
Gina Douty:
What we like to do is get them excited by finding historic photos, because we know where to get them. Finding the historic photos, finding who lived in their building before, finding what the building was all about. If they’ve had questions of, “Why are the stairs here and not here?” To be able to show them maybe sometimes the photos, and the maps, and the old floor plans, and show them, “This is why. This is when these folks did this, and why they did it.” I think that’s my calling, to help with that, and helps [crosstalk 00:24:03].
Danielle Keperling:
Connecting the stories to the building, because I think, people, they feel an emotional connection to the building. But then when you start layering on the people and how they lived, then I think people really get that connection.
Gina Douty:
I think they do. You start finding folks naming their buildings based on, maybe, somebody who lived there, or what it once was. It’s really nice to see that.
Gina Douty:
Then I always mention to folks that they can always, then, provided they’ve got the right copyright laws and everything, that maybe blowing some of these photographs up and putting them in their buildings so that people can see what it was once, or you can get inspiration from what it was once.
Gina Douty:
Because we’re also hired by architectural firms, and engineers, and stuff to document buildings that are going to be demolished as well. We have a responsibility to document it, document it well, and maybe educate those folks who are demolishing it for good reasons, sometimes, that, “Maybe you keep a little piece of this,” or there’s a little bit of history that can be shared in the new space so that we can see it. Like I said, it’s hard to keep it all.
Danielle Keperling:
It is. Yeah. There was a case in Lancaster. When I was working with the Preservation Trust, they were going to all the municipalities to encourage them to at least put a demolition review in place in the municipality. There was an older … I think it was the 1700s. I don’t know exactly the date, but the people wanted to tear it down. Whatever they wanted to do to the property wasn’t fitting with what they wanted to do. That was the compromise, that they documented, that they salvage as much as they can. I don’t think anybody was really happy about it, but it was a compromise.
Gina Douty:
Yeah. There is. Because, if not, and somebody just comes in with the wrecking ball and you didn’t have a chance to document, that at least something be given to folks to be able to document. I think, then, developers or folks who need to add additions, it keeps them wanting to come into your area, and not away.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. Yeah. I’m thinking, too, it also gives everybody breathing room. “Let’s step back and think about this a little bit.”
Gina Douty:
Yeah. Then everybody has, maybe, a little bit of gain here. I think you’re right.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. Is there anything that sets your business apart from other preservation consultants?
Gina Douty:
I think we’re small, but …
Danielle Keperling:
I think that’s sometimes an advantage. I do. Yeah.
Gina Douty:
Maybe. Whether it’s maybe a cost thing or just small, sometimes maybe … We always say, “Cheap, fast, or good. Pick two.” Maybe we can’t always be as fast as people would need, and if they need that, then they can go where they need to be.
Gina Douty:
We try to be personable. We try to have knowledge, particularly in the Central Pennsylvania area, of historic trends so that we can jump right in there and maybe help instead of … But we’ll do other places where we … Because we love to research. We will research a little bit more of the history of areas. Particularly in Pennsylvania is where we’re most suited. I think maybe just that the CEO is the one you get to talk to, and … Maybe that’s a good thing. I don’t know. Maybe it’s not, but it’s-
Danielle Keperling:
You know who to call.
Gina Douty:
Yeah. They can get a hold of me, and if it works for them … I think that’s with any relationship, though. If we feel that we have a good relationship and a good rapport with some folks, we’ll come out. We call it, just, the pro-bono visit. We don’t charge to come out and look at your property, see if there’s something we can do, talk to you and see what you want. Put a proposal together, and phase it in a way that makes sense for somebody to understand, as well as understand the costs that will come along with it. Maybe that’s what we do.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. How should our listeners contact you?
Gina Douty:
Through the website, www.GMDHistoric.com.
Danielle Keperling:
I’ll make sure that’s on our website, too, along with the recording.
Gina Douty:
Phone is also a good way, too. Send an email.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Very good. Did you have anything that you would like to promote to the listeners, or a seminar, or anything that you’re doing that you …
Gina Douty:
Next week we’ll be at the annual Conference on Heritage in Chambersburg next Wednesday. We’ll be presenting a session. In fact, we’ll be doing … It’s called No Norm Dorm, how to reuse historic buildings as student housing. Which is one right next door to us here, at Pennsylvania College of Art and Design, that we did some work on for the tax credits. What else are we doing out there? Just … I don’t know. I’m trying to think a little bit. Just, we’re out there a lot, just to …
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Do you have your calendar on your website, or …
Gina Douty:
We don’t. I think we’re looking to maybe put out a little bit of a mailer at the end of the year to say what we’ve been doing, what we’ve done over the last seven years. I don’t really do one of those blog things because, just, it’s always … I know how frustrated I get when I get on a website and it hasn’t been updated. Then [inaudible 00:29:53]. I think more of that. Just doing a lot of good work out there right now.
Danielle Keperling:
Very good. Thank you.
Gina Douty:
Thank you.
Danielle Keperling:
Thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to the Practical Preservation Podcast. The resources discussed during this episode are on our website at PracticalPreservationServices.com/Podcast. If you received value from this episode and know someone else that would get value from it as well, please share it with them.
Speaker 1:
Join us next week for another episode of the Practical Preservation Podcast. For more information on restoring your historic home, visit PracticalPreservationServices.com.