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John Stahl of Next Generation Systems joined the Practical Preservation podcast to discuss his epoxy system, preservation contracting experience and services, plus his window evaluation program of surveying, documenting, and providing recommendations to building owners.
A Practical Preservation first – John launched his new product ‘on the air’ – cold weather epoxy for wood:
Contact information and discount code:
John Stahl – 607-760-6658 or john@nxtgensys.com
10% off of epoxy repair materials – code practicalpreservation
Bio:
John Stahl started his career working on a historic property in Salt Lake City while attending college.
John moved to New York City and began a small painting and building restoration company.
In 1992, John began a long relationship with This Old House Television show demonstrating wood and wood window restoration. John also worked on several articles for This Old House Magazine.
John assisted Sanford University in surveying and developing a detailed scope of work for the restoration of 1300 windows and doors at their historic Main Quad.
John is the owner and product developer for Next Generation Systems located in Altamont, New York.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for tuning in to the Practical Preservation Podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website practicalpreservationservices.com for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher or SoundCloud. And also like us on Facebook.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Practical Preservation Podcast, hosted by Danielle and Jonathan Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use as well as future generations. Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home, educating by sharing our from the trenches preservation knowledge and our guest’s expertise. Balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character and beauty of your period home.
Danielle Keperling:
John Stahl started his career working on a historic property in Salt Lake City while attending college. John moved to New York City and began a small painting and building restoration company. In 1992 John began a long relationship with This Old House television show, demonstrating wood and wood window restoration. John also worked on several articles for This Old House magazine. John assisted Stanford University in serving and developing a detailed scope of work for the restoration of 1300 windows and doors at their historic main quad. John is the owner and product developer for Next Generation Systems located in Altamont, New York. Did I get that right?
John Stahl:
Yes. Yes. Altamont, New York.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes. Okay. Very good. Well, John, thank you for joining me today. We’ve been kind of virtually connected for a little bit and I’ve been watching your product development and the different work that you’ve done. And I thought it would be interesting for our listeners to hear your story.
John Stahl:
Yeah, that’s terrific. I was trying to remember when the last time was or when we met. But maybe we were just connected online for a long time.
Danielle Keperling:
I think so. I can’t remember a time that we’ve actually met in person.
John Stahl:
Okay.
Danielle Keperling:
Sometimes that line gets blurry.
John Stahl:
It does. It sure does. Especially after 20 years.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes. Yes. So tell me how you started your business.
John Stahl:
Well, I’ve always been in preservation, almost always been in preservation work. The business I currently have is Next Generation Systems, which is actually a new company that I started about two years ago. Hence, the name Next Generation. Because I developed a flexible epoxy, back in about 1996, 97, engineered for wood repair. And grew that company through until I sold it back in 2008. So then I took a little hiatus and did a few different things. And then I really love preservation work and love restoring and seeing old houses repaired, not replaced. And so I started Next Generation Systems using some newer technology in flexible epoxies for repairing wood.
Danielle Keperling:
So it’s wood specific, the epoxy that you developed?
John Stahl:
Yes, yes. Right now it’s specific to wood repair. That’s the product end of the company. Because of my work with Stanford and a few other organizations over the years, I am still doing window survey work, scope of work, development for institutions, as well as private homeowners. One of the big issues is repair versus replacement. When do I repair? When do I replace?
Danielle Keperling:
Right. Do you go in and evaluate that then for the building owner?
John Stahl:
Yes, exactly. We’ll go in and put together several different options. I mean, it’s not a cut and dried issue. There’s always lots to consider depending on what the building owner wants and what their objectives are.
Danielle Keperling:
Right. Yeah. And I know personally from our work, I’ve seen from replace at 50% to replace at 33%.
John Stahl:
Exactly.
Danielle Keperling:
And there is a wide variation even among the preservation specifications.
John Stahl:
Yes. Absolutely, yeah. And then I’m also dabbling in doing some window restoration work myself. I’ve got a small crew now and we’re doing a few small projects. Doing window restoration and wood restoration here in the New York area, Upstate New York. And the other thing that I’ve been developing is a contractor training program to help contractors to kind of understand the technology, feel comfortable with using it and kind of increase their portfolio that they can offer their customers.
Danielle Keperling:
The training program, do you do that on site or do people come to you? How do you do the training?
John Stahl:
Either one. Good question. Either one. It depends. I mean, we’ll normally do two or three a year here in Upstate New York and people will travel. But I’m always open to hopping in the car or hopping in a plane and going out and doing it for a contractor in other parts of the country. Obviously there’s expenses involved. So either one.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Very good. So why were you drawn to preservation? Why did you choose preservation as your underlying theme of your working life?
John Stahl:
Well, I can’t say it was a real decision, like sat down one day and said, “Okay, this is what I want to do.” When I was in Salt Lake, going to college, a roommate of mine in the summer took on a project restoring a historic register property in Salt Lake City. And he said, “Hey, we need some help. Do you want to come work?” And I was like, “Yeah, fine. That’s good, whatever.” It’s work, when you’re in college it’s work.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
And I really enjoyed it. And they brought in some amazing artists and craftsmen into this property. This was Brigham Young’s doctors’ house right up in The Avenues. And I met some really interesting people that did faux finishing and some really fine finish carpentry. And I was intrigued by it, but I was kind of heading in a different direction. Looking to seek fame and fortune on Broadway in New York City. So that’s how I ended up in New York. But you probably never saw my name in lights because they never were in lights.
Danielle Keperling:
Oh, no.
John Stahl:
Yeah. So I ended up starting a small painting company and that evolved. And since I had done some preservation work, there’s tons of preservation work in the New York City area, so I got involved in doing that. So it just kind of evolved. But it’s something that I do enjoy and so here I am.
Danielle Keperling:
I definitely in talking with different preservationists, and also the people that we attract to work with us, see that underlying theme of the arts, the artisans, working together. It’s an easy extension.
John Stahl:
Yeah. A lot of people say, “How did you go from musical theater into doing construction work?” And for me, I don’t see it as being that much different. I mean, it’s still artistic. I love the architecture. Here it did lend itself in a very practical way, obviously, into making a living.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. Very good. So what do you wish you knew when you got started?
John Stahl:
Not specific stuff to preservation really, but more broadly just I wished that I would have networked more. Built more relationships earlier on with people in the preservation world, like architects and engineers and contractors.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
And I think that was just basically the dilemma that a lot of contractors find themselves in is that they’re so busy working, trying to finish jobs, that they don’t take time to network and market and increase their knowledge. So I wish I would have maybe spent some time, speaking of increasing knowledge, spent more time maybe in Europe. I did go to Europe and learned some amazing techniques for restoration. They’re a little further ahead of us for obvious reasons. And so it would have been nice to have spent more time training and learning from people in other parts of the world.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes. And they use different materials-
John Stahl:
Yes.
Danielle Keperling:
… also then than we do.
John Stahl:
Yes, different methods and different materials. And again, another thing is I was thinking about this question and I thought, well, not afraid to fail.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
I wish I would have not been afraid to just go out there and, yeah, fall flat on my face a few hundred times before I… Not play it so safe.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
But none of that is really specifically related to preservation. I think it’s just part of business.
Danielle Keperling:
I agree. And you do as you get more exposed to different people, different ideas, but also different projects. The knowledge that you gain then the later projects do benefit from that.
John Stahl:
Yeah. And the confidence.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes.
John Stahl:
I think that’s a big thing too. I mean, here I was at 21, 22 years old, a fine arts major from the Midwest in New York City and restoring these amazing buildings. And I was a little intimidated to be honest. So I think that was also a part of it that you’d gain confidence. There’s really no other way to gain confidence other than just getting out there and doing it. Yeah, you could read books and you can go to seminars, but the only way you’re truly going to gain confidence is to get out there and start doing the work and learning and growing.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah, I agree. So what is the biggest challenge you see in preservation?
John Stahl:
I think for building owners, probably the biggest challenge for them is we still live in very much in a world of rip out and replace. It’s one of the things that I think Americans, it’s not a glamorous trait that we have as Americans, that we tend to look at things as rip out and replace. Tear it down. Build up new. And you can see that everywhere in our society.
Danielle Keperling:
Yes.
John Stahl:
But on a ground level when I talk, if I do trade shows and I run across your average contractor, maybe not one that does historic preservation, and they see the photos or they see the stuff that I’m advocating to do, their first thing out of their mouth is, “Oh, hell. I’d just rip that out and replace it. Why go through all that trouble?” It’s very much ingrained in our psyche as Americans to just rip out and replace. So therefore, I think the biggest challenge for somebody who is looking to restore their building is finding people that are on the same page.
Danielle Keperling:
I agree. Yeah.
John Stahl:
There’s still not a lot of us out there. And I know a lot of times I hear people say, since I obviously I’m around a lot of window work. That’s where I’ve been centered around because that’s a lot of what exterior wood there is in windows.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
And then people will say, “You’re the first person that ever told me that I could restore it, not rip it out and replace it.”
Danielle Keperling:
We hear that a lot also.
John Stahl:
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s one of the biggest challenges is just overcoming that message that you get from the big boys. The companies like Window World and Marvin, Anderson, Pella. They make a great product, but obviously they want to sell windows. It’s like asking a barber if you need a haircut. You’re not going to get somebody who’s selling new windows to tell you, “Oh no, don’t buy my new windows, restore these.”
Danielle Keperling:
Right. Especially if they’re just the salesperson and they’re just trying to sell what solution they have.
John Stahl:
Yeah, absolutely. And I don’t blame them. I mean, we all are assigned a certain task and they’re out there doing it.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
So I think that it’s incumbent upon the building owner to sort of step back a little bit and say, “I want to get a second opinion here. I want to look and try to see if I can find somebody who isn’t advocating rip out and replace. And let’s just take a deeper look at this to see if it’s possible.”
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. And what options there are.
John Stahl:
Yes, exactly what options there are. Yeah. And cost. It’s not always cheaper to repair. That is another thing, a little bit of a misnomer is that, Oh, it’s cheaper to restore.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
Not necessarily.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. There’s a lot of labor involved in restoration.
John Stahl:
Yeah. There’s a lot of labor involved and you have to really compare apples to apples. That’s the big issue. Yeah, I can rip out an old six over six double hung window and put in a vinyl replacement for probably about $200.
Danielle Keperling:
Right, yeah.
John Stahl:
But that’s not apples to apples.
Danielle Keperling:
No, it’s not. I mean, it’s still a glass in your window opening, but it’s not the same at all. You’re getting a plastic window.
John Stahl:
It would be like somebody saying, “Well, geez.” You go to a Mercedes dealership or to an antique car dealership. Right? And you say, “Geez, a 68 Corvette restored, what? That’s $10,000. Well, I can buy a brand new Kia for 20,000 and I get better gas mileage. And I can.” It’s like, well, you’re not really comparing apples to apples.
Danielle Keperling:
No, you’re not getting the same vehicle at all.
John Stahl:
No, you’re not. No. I think the other real challenge is the skilled workers. It kind of goes along with not being able to find the contractors, but also the contractors have a hard time finding the skilled workers.
Danielle Keperling:
And that’s very true. We went, not this past weekend, the weekend before, to an auction for a masonry company that was going out of business. We were interested in the scaffolding. And looking around the room my husband and myself were there and there were maybe two other people that were around our age, thirties, forties, everybody else in the room was probably close to retirement age.
John Stahl:
Yes. Yep. Yeah. That’s a huge issue. And you see it in a lot of the articles and stuff that I read on the internet. They’re talking about the need for skilled labor. So that’s an opportunity.
Danielle Keperling:
It is. It is. And it’s an opportunity to educate people in high school and college age that there are options without necessarily going to college.
John Stahl:
Yes.
Danielle Keperling:
For good careers. Are there any things that you do specifically to keep up with trends? Are there any trends that you’re seeing in preservation that are promising?
John Stahl:
Gosh, not really. It seems to be pretty much the same, which is good news. Like I said, I sold my last businesses and did something totally different for a while. And then when I was thinking about getting back into selling epoxies and doing window restoration work, I kind of thought, well, I think things are different now. Is this even a viable business?
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
And the more I got into it and the more I started talking to people, it’s like, yeah, it’s still the same. There’s still a lot of the same people doing the work. They’re as busy as ever. Yes, there are new kids on the block also doing the work, which is awesome. Generally speaking, over time we’re going to start losing more and more of our historic buildings.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
The windows are going to get ripped out by the window guys and replaced. The houses are going to get torn down or whatever. Things age. But the buildings that are left become even more important over the years. So there’s still a good, healthy preservation world out there.
Danielle Keperling:
I guess that’s good. It’s good that it’s a stable kind of subset of the remodeling industry. And also that there are people who are continuing to learn and to get involved. Because without it we would be losing those skills and that knowledge.
John Stahl:
Yeah. I mean, I remember, I’ve been doing this a long time. I remember back, this would have been early eighties, there was a thought out there that, well, this is just a trend. This won’t last. People like old houses now, but they’re not going to like them in 10 years and they’re going to be ripping them out. Luckily, probably the opposite is true just because of the TV shows that are out there and the internet. And there’s more information out there now than there’s ever been. And the younger home buyers and building stewards appreciate the architecture and appreciate the craftsmanship that are in the older buildings.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah, I agree. And had made an observation, I don’t know if it was last year or the year before last, but there was a realtor commercial, get a realtor, and all of the houses that they were showing were older houses. And I thought, well, they do feel more like home. It’s not just a cookie cutter, every house is the same. So yeah, I agree that I think that the trend is continuing towards people wanting something with permanence rather than something that’s just thrown up and the same as everybody else’s.
John Stahl:
Yeah. And it would cost so much nowadays to build a new home.
Danielle Keperling:
Right.
John Stahl:
I mean, it’s phenomenal. Even a quarter of a million dollars for a new house is not going to really buy you that great of a house depending where you’re living, depending on the area. Where you can buy, younger homeowner or somebody who’s looking to purchase a home, can buy much more of a house for less money if they get into the older properties.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. So, okay. What makes your business different? What special things do you offer or about your epoxies Anything you want to share?
John Stahl:
Well, there’s two different, three different things actually that we’re doing these days. We have the epoxies that are engineered for wood repair. Some of those particular features are they’re easy to use, easy to mix, easy to apply, remain flexible, bond well to wood. Our initial product we warranty for 10 years, a performance warranty, if the contractor has been trained. There’s nobody out there that offers a warranty on their epoxy products. We’re also introducing just, well for this podcast, we’re launching a new product, which is a cold weather formula. So it works well for temperatures like we’re having here today in Upstate New York, 40, 45 to 65 degrees. So we’re excited about that. And then with the service end of things, because I’ve been involved on so many aspects of the window restoration business from hands-on, to developing products, to doing survey work, we’ve got a rich experience in all aspects. So we have that to bring to the table for the building owner to offer them a good service in terms of the survey work in repair replacement.
Danielle Keperling:
And your repair work is mostly for Upstate New York?
John Stahl:
Yeah. Yeah. We’re pretty much I’ll say within a 90 mile radius of Albany, New York.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay.
John Stahl:
Yep.
Danielle Keperling:
And let’s see. How can our listeners contact you?
John Stahl:
They can contact me either my cell phone, 607-760-6658, 607-760-6658. Or John@N-X-T-G-E-N-S-Y-S.com. That’s the abbreviation of Next Generation Systems. And the website is www.N-X-T-G-E-N-S-Y-S.com.
Danielle Keperling:
Well, very good. I’ll make sure that your contact information and links to your site or on our website when I post the podcast.
John Stahl:
Oh, that’d be great.
Danielle Keperling:
Yeah. So do you have any offers for our listeners?
John Stahl:
Yes.
Danielle Keperling:
Or any place that you’ll be appearing?
John Stahl:
Yes, I do. I have an offer for the listeners. If they’re interested in our epoxy repair materials, obviously go to the website, check it out. And if you’re interested in purchasing we’re offering a 10% discount with the discount code practical preservation. So just type in practical preservation when you go to checkout and you’ll get a 10% discount.
Danielle Keperling:
Good. Thank you. I’ll make sure that’s on the website also.
John Stahl:
Okay. Terrific.
Danielle Keperling:
Okay. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to share? Is there anything that popped into your mind while we were talking?
John Stahl:
Oh, I don’t think so. I think one of the things if you’re doing the work yourself or if you’re, I’ve restored three of my own houses as well as doing restoration for so many other people, it’s important just to keep your head down. It’s so easy to get overwhelmed with all that needs to be done if you’re restoring an old house. And focus on what you’ve already gotten done rather than what still needs to be done. Because it can be pretty overwhelming at times.
Danielle Keperling:
I agree. And you do, you have to break it into chunks or else you do, you get overwhelmed and then you just can’t move anything forward.
John Stahl:
So I appreciate the opportunity.
Danielle Keperling:
Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Have a great rest of your day.
John Stahl:
Okay. Thank you.
Danielle Keperling:
Yep. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to the Practical Preservation Podcast. The resources discussed during this episode are on our website at practicalpreservationservices.com/podcast. If you received value from this episode and know someone else that will get value from it as well, please share it with them. Join us next week for another episode of the Practical Preservation Podcast. For more information on restoring your historic home visit practicalpreservationservices.com