Spring is finally here, and it’s time to look around your house to see if winter weather has taken its toll. We’ll soon be firing up our grills and relaxing with friends and family. But, before you can do that, there’s much work to be done.

In the 19th century, before vacuums came into common use, early spring was a time to open windows and sweep homes from “top to bottom” to herald the coming of warmer weather. Your spring maintenance projects can be handled the same way – from roof to foundation.

So, let’s take a walk around your property to make a detailed list of needed repairs. Here are ten useful tips to get your house ready for spring:

  1. Inspect your roof. Harsh winter weather can cause roof shingles to become lost or damaged. Shingles that are cracked, buckled, loose or missing granules must be replaced. A qualified roofer should check and repair flashing around plumbing vents, skylights and chimneys.
  2. Examine your chimney. Look for signs of exterior damage and replace any loose or missing bricks. Have the flue cleaned and inspected by a certified chimney sweep.
  3. Check for loose, leaky or clogged gutters. Clear leaves, sticks, muck and other debris by flushing the gutters with water. Contact a professional gutter cleaner if you are unable to do so yourself. Improper drainage can lead to water in the basement or crawl space. Make sure downspouts are also free of debris and that they drain away from the foundation.
  4. Look for loose or damaged siding. Once you have assessed the need for repairs, spring is also a good time to clean your siding with soap and water from a garden hose.
  5. Fill low areas in your yard with compacted soil. This is especially true near the house. Spring rains can cause flooding, which can lead to foundation damage. Pay attention to puddles of water in your yard. When water pools in these low areas, it creates a breeding ground for insects like mosquitoes.
  6. Check outside faucets. Freezing temperatures can do damage to plumbing; this is especially true for outdoor fixtures. Before hooking up the hose to water your flowerbeds, turn the water on and place your thumb or finger over the opening of the faucet. If you can stop the flow of water the pipe inside your home may be damaged. Contact a professional plumber if you aren’t comfortable with replacing the pipe yourself. While we’re on the subject of watering flowers, check the garden hose for dry rot.
  7. Clean and service your air conditioner system. Hire a qualified heating and cooling contractor to clean the coils and check for damage to the ourside unit. Scheduling an annual service call is recommended to keep the system functioning efficiently. Changing interior filters on a regular basis can also extend the life of your air conditioning system. Also, be sure to vacuum out your floor registers.
  8. Inspect the water heater. Water heaters work twice as hard during the winter to make your home a warm and comfortable environment. After all that hard work, water heaters can accumulate rust or develop leaks. To make sure your water heater is at its top performance for spring, check for signs of leaks or corrosion.
  9. Repair wood trim. Inspect windows, doors, railings and decks now before spring rains do more damage to exposed wood.
  10. Months of exposure to rain, snow and freezing temperatures can do just as much damage to your child’s playground equipment as it can your home. Ensure all outdoor toys are safe by tightening bolts, removing splinters and sharp edges and cleaning off any mold or animal droppings.

Greg Huber from Eastern Barn Consultants and Past Perspectives joined the Practical Preservation podcast to discuss:

  • How barn styles varied from region to region 
  • What makes barn construction unique
  • The type of barn Danielle had never heard of

We also discussed the services Greg offers documenting barns and researching house histories, the barn tours and seminars, and the books he has written.  

Contact info:

Greg Huber, Architectural Historian

610-967-5808

[email protected]

Books:

The Historic Barns of Southeastern Pennsylvania: Architecture and Preservation Built 1750-1900

Bio:

Gregory Huber – of Past Perspectives and Eastern Barn Consultants

• Gregory D. Huber is an independent scholar, consultant and principal owner of both Past Perspectives and Eastern Barn Consultants, historic and cultural resources companies that are based in Macungie, Lehigh County, Pennsylvania.
• His special focus is in House Histories and Barn Histories of historic homesteads in southeast Pennsylvania and beyond.
• A student of early vernacular architecture since 1971, Huber has specialized in pre-1850 barn and house architecture of Holland Dutch in New York State and northern New Jersey and Pennsylvania Swiss-German and certain English settled areas of the northeast.
• Huber’s latest book – out in August 2017 – The Historic Barns of Southeastern Pennsylvania – Architecture and Preservation – Built 1750 to 1900 has reached Number One Book on the Amazon Best Seller list in its specific category – Vernacular Architecture
• He is author of more than 270 articles on barn and house architecture and is co-author of two other books and editor of another book – Barns – A Close-up Look.
• He has lectured to more than 225 audiences and led dozens of barn and house tours in several states of the northeast.
• He is available for historic homestead consultation work on old houses and barns.

 

 

It is easy to think that if the look of a historical building is maintained and the appropriate types of materials are used, then the building has been successfully preserved. But preservation is not just about preserving how something looks, it is primarily focused in preserving how something is so that it remains as original as possible for future generations.

As important as it is to preserve how our historical buildings actually are, inevitably replacements will need to be made when features are so deteriorated that stabilzation, conservation, or restoration are simply not viable options.

One example is the Thaddeus Kosciuszko National Memorial (the smallest National Park at the corner of 3rd and Pine Street in Philadelphia). We worked with the National Park Service to restore the exterior of the building including to repair and restore wood windows, doors, and a cedar shake roof.

To accurately preserve the Kosciuszko house, we needed to match not just the size, shape, and textures of the shingles themselves, but also the craftsmanship details added during the manufacturing and installation that characterized the roof. To do this, we ordered hand-split cedar shakes and had our detail-oriented artisan craftsmen recreate the original installation.

Video of shakes being hand-split for our order.

Without this attention to detail, the Kosciuszko house would not have been preserved as an accurate testimonial to our architectural heritage. It would have been easier and less expensive to replace the shake roof with any number of other options, including some that are commonly considered “historically accurate,” but they would have not been historically accurate on this house. Even if they were considered “period appropriate,” when we choose a different treatment than what was there originally, we are altering, not preserving, the very things that make the building historic.

In order to avoid significant and sometimes irreparable damage to your building, consider replacing only the deteriorated or missing pats of your building’s features. Use materials that match old in design, color, and texture (both physically and visually). Also, document the original material, the replacement process, and materials used, for future reference and research.

Things to ask yourself about the materials on your building:

  • Do I have documentation of all former replacements, including documentation of original features?
  • Have I had my building evaluated by a qualified contractor to identify any inappropriate replacement materials or approaches?
  • Do I document all replacements I do, including written and photographic documentation, noting the materials, details and tooling on both the original and the replacement?
  • Are there any parts of my building’s original features that are deteriorated or missing and need replacement?
  • Is it possible to replace the deteriorated parts instead of replacing the whole feature?
  • Have I checked with a qualified contractor to see if remediation is needed for any not-in-kind replacements previously performed on my building? 

Judith Broeker from Adventures in Preservation joined the Practical Preservation podcast for this episode. AiP is a non-profit organization that promotes heritage tourism by combining travel, new skills, and community intuitive. They organize travel to various locations (in the United States and Europe scheduled for 2019) to work with skilled craftspeople on a preservation site in need of repairs.

Contact information:

Judith Broeker – [email protected]

Bio:

Adventures in Preservation was founded in 2001 by two women with a great love of historic buildings and a strong desire to travel and understand the world. While perusing the travel section of the Boulder Bookstore, the Volunteer Vacation section suddenly brought everything into focus. Judith Broeker combined her goal of saving historic buildings with the concept of experiential travel, and created Adventures in Preservation’s hands-on preservation vacations.

Work started on several sites in the U.S., and as word spread, requests for help began to pour in from around the world, underscoring the great potential of using volunteers to restore historic buildings. While supporting community-based preservation initiatives, AiP staff and volunteers discovered that their love of old buildings could translate into environmental and economic sustainability for communities.

In 2019, we are working with communities in Virginia, Montana, Scotland, and Armenia.

Founder, Judith Broeker is a materials conservation specialist with both research and hands-on experience gained at historic structures in the United States and abroad. Judith holds a degree in Asian Studies, along with a Master’s degree in History with an emphasis in historic preservation. She is the Program Director of AiP and responds to all requests for preservation assistance. She also works with community members to fully develop each project. For her, nothing is better than exploring a historic building with camera in hand.

Susan Dippre from Susan Dippre Designs joined the Practical Preservation podcast to discuss how working at Colonial Williamsburg combined her love of history and landscaping. She has recently begun her own company to provide the general public with Williamsburg inspired designs from natural materials.

Contact information:

[email protected]

Williamsburg Farmers Market

Bio:

Susan Dippre began her career in Colonial Williamsburg’s gardens in April of 1980. Her first assignment as a Gardener was at Carter’s Grove Plantation, at it’s beautiful location on the James River. She assisted with the holiday decorations there and fell in love with the beauty and creativity.

In 1990 she was promoted to Foreman, responsible for the maintenance of the gardens and grounds at the Williamsburg Inn and Lodge, and later, Merchant Square. During this time she renovated the rooftop garden at the DeWitt Wallace Museum.

She became a Supervisor in the Historic Area in 1995; inheriting the responisiblity of decorating the whole area for the holidays. She, with the assistance of a dozen Gardeners and a half dozen Carpenters, were decorating well over 100 buildings in the Historic Area, Merchant Square, and a majority of the Hotel Holiday decorations, including all interior and exterior trees and the front of the Williamsburg Inn, streets, and parking lots for over 20 years.

The favorite parts of her job were the demonstrations and workshops also working with all the designers to create the beautiful and original designs that graces the many buildings throughout. Recently she has begun a business so she can continue the design processes throughout the year.

Resources:

Colonial Williamsburg Decorates for Christmas

Christmas Decorating for Williamsburg

John Goodenberger and Lucien Swerdloff from the Clatsop Community College’s Historic Preservation and Restoration program joined the Practical Preservation Podcast to discuss:

  • The collaborative approach their program uses to deal with the contractor storage
  • Sustainable building (viewing historic buildings as resources to be preserved)
  • Their combination of teaching both theory and hands-on preservation (very practical)

Contact info and Bios:

Clatsop College

1651 Lexington Ave

Astoria, OR 97103

The Clastop Community College Historic Preservation Program, in Astoria, Oregon at the mouth of the Columbia River, prepares students for work in the building trades with an emphasis on the preservation and restoration of historic and vintage residential and commerical buildings. Students gain the knowledge and skills to plan and restore structures in historically accurate ways utilizing both traditional and modern materials and methods. The program offers classes in historic preservation theory and workshops in practical hands-on skills.

John Goodenberger is a preservationist and instructor in the Historic Preservation program. Educated in architecture at University of Oregon, John has guided the restoration of commerical and residential buildings in Astoria. Working also a the City’s historic building consultant, he has analyzed the integrity and historic significance of more than 1,000 properties. John was the chair of the State Advisory Committee on Historic Preservation and is currently a regional representative for Restore Oregon, and is on the board of Columbia Pacific Preservation, a collaborative group promoting education and economic development through historic preservation.

Lucien Swerdloff is the program coordinator and instructor in the Historic Preservation and the Computer Aided Design programs at Clatsop Community College. He earned Master of Architecture and Master of Science degrees from the State University of New York in Buffalo. He has organized numerous preservation workshops throughout Oregon and Washington and worked on the restoration of many historic structures. Lucien is on the boards of Columbia Pacific Preservation, the Lower Columbia Preservation Society, and the Astoria Ferry Group, working to preserve, protect, and operate the historic Tourist No. 2 ferry.

Resources Discussed:

National Council for Preservation Education

Historic Preservation and Energy Efficiency Guide – Pacific Power

Jay Reyher from Quanta Panel joined the Practical Preservation podcast to discuss:

  • How they began producing storm windows
  • The technology behind their system
  • Why saving your original windows makes sense from an engineering standpoint

Quanta Panel’s tagline is, “You don’t need brand-new windows.  Your windows need brand-new technology.”  We couldn’t agree more…and it helps that they manufacture less than a mile from our office – made in America and local!

Contact information:

Quanta Technologies, Inc.
1036 New Holland Avenue
Lancaster, PA 17601-5606
1.855.782.6821

John Walters from LeWalt Consulting Groupe joined me to discuss how tax strategies can help with land and property preservation efforts.

We covered:

John’s contact information and additional resources:

LeWalt Consulting Groupe, LLC
https://www.facebook.com/LeWaltConsulting

727-388-9024

Tax Codes Referenced:
Conservation Easements
Historic Preservation Tax Incentives
Energy Incentives

Bio:
John is an Enrolled Agent, Certified Tax Coach, Best Selling Author, Instructor and Speaker at the firm LeWalt Consulting Groupe, LLC located in St. Petersburg, Florida.
He is known on LinkedIn as:
“Florida’s Leading Pro-Active Tax and Financial Change Agent for your Diverse needs and Individual Lifestyle”
At LeWalt Consulting Groupe, LLC our PASSION is creating “Tax Alpha” that helps you, as the Entrepreneur and Business Owner, live the “Ultimate”​ TAX-FREE lifestyle you desire using the complexities written into the Internal Revenue Service Tax-Code to your favor!
After all… We believe those numbers on your TAX FORMS is your “REAL” money, why not protect, preserve, and keep it for you and your family?
How may we Help You Live a Life that is less taxing…?

Tran

Announcer: Thank you for tuning into the Practical Preservation podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website practicalpreservationservices.com for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not yet done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, and Sound Cloud, and also like us on Facebook.

Announcer: Welcome to the Practical Preservation podcast hosted by Danielle Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family-owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use as well as future generations. Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home, educating by sharing our from-the-trenches preservation knowledge and our guests’ expertise, balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character, and beauty of your period home.

Danielle: Thank you for joining us on the Practical Preservation podcast. Today, we have John Walters speaking with us about some tax tools that you can use to help preserve buildings. John is an Enrolled Agent, Certified Tax Coach, best-selling author, instructor, and speaker at the firm LeWalt Consulting Groupe, LLC. located in St. Petersburg, Florida. He is known on LinkedIn as Florida’s leading proactive state and financial change agent for your diverse needs and individual lifestyle.

Danielle: “At LeWalt Consulting Groupe, LLC., our passion is creating tax alpha that helps you as the entrepreneur and business owner live the ultimate tax-free lifestyle you desire using the complexities written into the Internal Revenue Service tax code to your favor. After all, we believe those numbers on your tax form is your real money. Why not protect, preserve and keep it for you and your family? How may we help you live a life that is less taxing?”

Danielle: So John, thank you for joining us and sharing your knowledge about the tax code and how that can be used to help us preserve buildings.

John: Well, thank you Danielle. I enjoy talking to people about taxes even though, I’m sure for most, it seems like a boring subject, but it’s one of the most things you’re going to pay all of your life and you might as be able to control it to your best ability.

Danielle: And understand it the best you can. I know I don’t feel I understand everything as much as I probably should. But yeah, I think the protections that people don’t understand that are written into tax code are really interesting because they can help you finance a project, they can help you make sure the building is preserved. Those things, I don’t think people necessarily think that those are tax code things, but they are. So thank you for sharing that knowledge with us.

John: Sure, no problem.

Danielle: I know one of the things that most people don’t either understand or are aware of is the tax conservation easement. If you could talk to us a little bit about that and help us understand. I understand a little bit from a preservation standpoint that the easement means that the outside can’t be changed because it’s protected, but I don’t understand what the tax ramifications of that is.

John: Okay. In the Internal Revenue Code, there’s a section called 170(h) and it talks about land conservation strategies, especially for federal and state taxes. What a land conservation strategy is designed to do is it’s designed to meet basically the tax payer’s – in this case, your client or whoever you’re working for – financial goals and take into heart their charitable desires.

John: In essence, it’s to preserve their properties and realize their most favorable economic outcomes, and actually, you get some tax savings out of it too. You become part of what we call the ready to conserve your assets for individuals and enjoy the related tax savings possible and the income opportunity in the property’s amenities.

John: In essence, what you want to do is let’s say you have a piece of property, but you don’t want it to be built on or you want to preserve it for generations to come and things like that. There are provisions in the tax code under the land conservation easement strategies is to actually give that land away. In essence, you’re giving it away for the purposes of being able to develop it or use it for some other commercial purpose to the government and you have official documents that tell you that you can do that. In turn, there are charitable deductions that you can take for that conservation.

John: With that, your land is preserved. Basically, you still retain rights to it, but you just can’t use it for other purposes, intended purposes.

Danielle: So it almost restricts you? Yeah, it restricts what you do with it. Okay.

John: Exactly. You have basically a deed of restriction, but that land can be used for whatever thing that you set it up for.

John: For instance, let’s say that you have land and you want to preserve it for hunting and you don’t want anybody to build anything on it. You could have a land conservation easement for that property; it could still be used for hunting and you can use for that purpose. You can even build a structure on there like a lodge or something like that and people could use it for hunting, but they wouldn’t be able to use for some other commercial development.

Danielle: [crosstalk 00:06:17] Yeah.

John: Yeah. In turn, when you take that conservation easement, the government’s giving you a tax deduction and it can be up to 50% of your adjusted gross income. Let’s say for every dollar this property is valued at, you go get it appraised and stuff, sometimes you can get to four to five times the benefit. In essence, what you’re telling is, well, if I built it commercially, this is what it would be valued at. But if I-

Danielle: So if you develop the property, that’s why they use as your [crosstalk 00:07:00]

John: Right.

Danielle: Okay, that makes sense.

John: So if I was going to put a housing development on it, it would be worth X. But if I say, “I don’t want to allow that on there,” they’re going to take that value of the housing development, it’s appraised out, subtract what the land is worth right now, and you get the difference in the tax credits.

Danielle: Okay. Okay, and then is that an actual credit onto … I’m trying to think about what I’m familiar with preservation easements. You usually then donate that to a nonprofit, is that correct? Or is the conservation a little bit different?

John: Yeah, it’s actually donated to the government, per se, because it’s under tax code. Now, there’s the charitable contributions fall under the federal tax code, but you can also get state tax credits too, depending on what state you’re in and the property.

Danielle: Yeah, I know. Yeah, the preservation tax credits are very dependent on which state you’re in, how robust they are.

John: Mm-hmm (affirmative), exactly.

Danielle: Yeah. So this benefits the person that’s doing the easement by reducing their taxable income. Is that pretty much what the goal is?

John: Right. You can reduce your actual tax that you would owe by between 30 and 50% of your adjusted gross income.

Danielle: Okay.

John: Now, let’s say it exceeds 50% of your gross income in that particular year, those charitable credits can be carried over for many years into the future until you can use them up.

Danielle: Okay.

John: Yeah, so typically, if you don’t have a whole lot of income in that particular year, it will just carry over until you can use those up.

Danielle: Use it up, so there’s not a time limit. I was thinking there’s a difference – and now this is telling you what I don’t understand about taxes. There’s a difference between a credit and a deduction, is that correct? So the credit is like just straight money to you, it’s not based on any kind of scale, correct? Is that what-

John: Well, yeah. There are credits that are basically a one-to-one dollar reduction in your taxes. Now, in the credit world-

Danielle: Okay, so [crosstalk 00:09:27] a percentage. Yeah.

John: Exactly. In the credit world though, you have two types of credits. You have what we call non-refundable, meaning that it can reduce your income, your taxes to zero. Then after that, if you still have more credit, you can’t use it anymore. You won’t get additional money back. But if they’re refundable, that means that you could have zero income tax that you owe, and still get a refund back from the government. Now-

Danielle: Oh, okay. Makes sense. Yeah.

John: And with the deductions, they are a percentage, depending on what your marginal tax bracket is. So in essence, a deduction, if you’re in the 25% tax bracket, then you’re going to get 25% or 25 cents back on the dollar for every dollar you deduct.

Danielle: Okay, okay. I know I see, in this area, a lot of conservation easements for farmland.

John: Exactly.

Danielle: Where the families want to preserve their farms from development but they still want to be able to use them and farm them. The easement doesn’t stop you from being able to use it from how you’ve been using it; it’s how you write the easement. Is that correct?

John: Right. So for an example like that, in farming and ranching, Ted Turner, which we all know from the broadcasting world and everything else, he has huge tracks of land in Wyoming and Montana that he has easements on. He still allows – there’s wild buffalo that run on there. He has cattle that graze and everything so it can still be used for ranching, but no one can actually develop it into a housing development or any commercial purpose.

Danielle: Okay, okay. Very, very interesting. Thank you. So then when you go to do the charitable deduction, then they figure out what the amount would be if they developed and then they give you … Is it the difference? Is that pretty much what your credit is?

John: Yeah. So for instance, let’s say it would be valued, appraised, at a million dollars if it was fully developed, but right now in your hands, ownership, it was worth really only $100,000, per se, in undeveloped land and everything else. So in fact, you could probably get a deduction for the $900,000 difference there.

Danielle: Because you’re not using it to develop it completely. It is a benefit then to the community too. That does make sense to me as to why it would be a tax credit also because you’re agreeing to leave it the way it was. It’s not [crosstalk 00:12:20].

John: Right, yeah.

Danielle: Yeah. So what are the risks to somebody who wants to use an easement or a land conservation easement to preserve their property? What would the risks be to that?

John: Well, a couple risks, not necessarily to the owner of the land. There are people that actually don’t own the land but want to invest in the ownership of that property with the original owner to get these tax credits.

Danielle: Oh, right.

John: So some of the risk there would be basically you may not get the asset protection as a limited partner instead of the ownership of it. Operating reserves set aside at a closing. There may be monies that are needed in excess of that property for the conveyance of it and the deed. Could be additional capital calls if other risks – or not risks but unknowns are known about the property. Maybe there was so encumbrances on the property that you didn’t know about and stuff, so money would have to become available to take those encumbrances away so that deed could be unrestricted.

John: Sometimes there’s a taxation risk basically due to audits because sometimes these things are not put together correctly. Lately, there’s been a little bit of talks in the IRS about making this what they call a listed transactions, where they still allow it, but you would have to list it there of what the transaction was and basically have your, per se, ducks in a row if you wanted to-

Danielle: [crosstalk 00:14:19] yeah.

John: Yeah. Of course, as always, anything in the code is subject to abuse.

Danielle: Right.

John: You may be working with unscrupulous people, a.k.a. crooks, that want to take your money basically and don’t do it properly so the whole deal falls apart.

Danielle: Yeah. That and I know that when we talk to home owners about it, people are nervous about restricting their deeds. I don’t know if you have that knowledge if it … Does it lower the value of the property or is it usually somebody who would be interested in conservation, is that something that would be appealing to them?

John: Oh, it would be very appealing to someone because most of us do have a charitable gift to us or want to do something, either that, preserve it for nature or actually for our legacy and stuff like that. But even if you end up selling the property or whatever, that easement and everything else can convey to the next group of people in ownership.

Danielle: Yeah, it attaches to the deed. Yep. Then they then have to … As far as I know, that is the only preservation tool that actually restricts what you can do because even being on the National Register, that building can still be torn down if you take the appropriate steps and get approval. You know what I mean?

John: Right.

Danielle: So that doesn’t protect it as much as the easement does. I know of a project here in Lancaster that they were going to develop. It was where Thaddeus Stevens had his offices in Lancaster. They were going to tear it down and then the nonprofit that held the easement came forward and said, “No, you can’t. We have an easement on this property.” And they actually ended up, it’s really a cool building to look at now because they incorporated the modern construction around this building. It’s marrying that old with the new, but they had to keep the original building there because they did hold the easement.

Danielle: That’s the only preservation tool that I know guarantees that the building will not change and have to stay the way it has been. So very, very [crosstalk 00:16:51].

John: Yeah, exactly because you are actually accepting a deed of restriction that permanently prohibits some sort of commercial exploitation and rights to the real estate property and stuff. You’re absolutely right. That’s pretty much the most ironclad vehicle there to be able to preserve something.

Danielle: Right, okay. And then I know you had given me some notes. I have that you would talk about the energy efficient property credits.

John: Sure, sure.

Danielle: Those are being extended, which is kind of exciting for people who are wanting to maybe put some green energy to use in their homes.

John: Yeah. The wind and solar credits have actually been extended to 2024 because our government sees the value of doing that and making us less reliant, basically, on fuels like oil and gas and things like that. The interesting thing is for these types of credits, you can qualify up to 30% of the eligible cost, which in fact, I just did one for a client this tax season.

John: They invested in a solar roof. They spent $52,000 on the roof. They ended up getting a $17,000 tax credit back, so it kind of wiped out all of their tax that they owed. Yeah and they’ll actually get to carry some over into the subsequent years because they used up all the taxes that they had this particular year.

John: So yeah, the beauty about theirs is … They were so excited because they started getting checks from the power company. In fact-

Danielle: Oh, that is exciting.

John: Yeah! They got a $400 check back from Duke Energy, which is the provider in the area. They were so elated because now the power company owes them money.

Danielle: Yeah. I know that when we started talking, you and I had started talking about doing this podcast topic, we had just been talking about the Tesla roof material. Those are individual solar cells. They picked all things that would be traditional materials and you can’t tell the difference. I’ll be curious to see how those are embraced, once they do their full roll-out, by the preservation community because those solar panels, the types of [crosstalk 00:19:42] they chose-

John: Oh, the new shingles?

Danielle: Yeah, but they chose slate and tile, those are not inexpensive roofing materials anyway. So if somebody’s going to do that, I’ll be curious to see how it’s embraced by the preservation community because there’s definitely that intersection of green and then traditional-looking materials at least.

John: Right.

Danielle: I think that’s pretty exciting.

John: Yeah. A lot of those things are coming out from the world of the Tesla vehicles and all of that to Elon Musk and producing new types of materials.

John: Yeah, that was the thing is people, they liked the idea of the solar, but they didn’t want to have these what they would consider ugly panels on their roof. So now-

Danielle: [crosstalk 00:20:29], yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s probably going to be in your world, open up a lot more opportunity and people to want to do that because yeah, now they can more look like the original property that we’re trying to preserve and everything, and get the efficiency out of it of modern energy systems.

Danielle: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s something exciting to definitely keep an eye on.

Danielle: The other thing and something that I think that people know about but it’s kind of like they don’t know a lot about it is the rehabilitation credits. I know the federal government has theirs, and then the State of Pennsylvania has some. There’s not a lot of money in the state. The tax credits here are very new for rehabilitation. I think they’re only a couple of years-old. I know that the federal tax credits have been around for a while and they’ve actually shown good economic development benefits, but if you could talk a little bit about the Rehabilitation Credits in the tax code.

John: Yeah, there’s rehabilitation credits.

Danielle: That’s a tough word.

John: Yeah, I know. That’s under Internal Revenue Code Section 47. There are actually two of them. One, it’s a 10% of the qualified rehabilitation expenditures, or whatever you spend, with respect to the qualified rehabilitated building. Other than a certified – it doesn’t have to be a certified historic structure in this case, okay?

Danielle: Right.

John: You can still get 10% of that. Now, in the second case, you can get 20% of the qualified rehabilitation expenditure, or cost, if it is a certified historic structure. So there, you can benefit even more.

John: Basically, the federal government is telling us, “Look, we understand you want to keep these buildings. They’re great buildings or whatever like that. They just need some tender love and care. We’re going to help you lower the cost to go ahead and rehab these buildings, especially if you’re going to keep them in order, use them for an economic purpose.”

John: So what we’re kind of looking at too is, okay, what’s in it for the government? Well, obviously if you’re going to be able to use that building, rehab it, for its use or just bring it back up to code so you can keep using it, well, they’re going to get more tax money, right?

Danielle: Right, right.

John: Because you’re going to remain in business and use that building. Well, the states, obviously, are still going to benefit because they’re going to get additional property taxes and they’ll probably reassess it on the rehabbed cost of it because, oh, it’s gone up in value because you rehabilitated it. There’s two benefits there.

John: Now, obviously the states benefits aren’t as rich as the federal government because, as we know, our government’s got plenty of money to throw around. Right?

Danielle: Right. Maryland has a really good rehabilitation credit system though. Theirs is, I think if you combined the federal and Maryland’s, you can get up to 50%.

John: Yeah.

Danielle: Yeah, so some of the states have a really good system.

John: I think it’s great. And so basically, it’s something to take into benefit there if you have a building that would meet those criteria. There again, you might get a little bit if it’s not a historic building, but still, it might be in your benefit to do it.

John: Now, like everything that we do in the tax code, there’s good and bad things. Well, the good thing is, yes, you could get some assistance there for doing it. The bad thing is you might have to jump over some hurdles, some paperwork, this and that, and everything else. But I found that once you do it, it’s well worth it.

Danielle: Yeah, I agree. It is a process to get through that because at first, you have to be approved by the State Historic Preservation Office, and then you go. They actually, once they have everything that they need, then they forward it onto the National Park Service for review. But typically, it is a lot of paperwork, but most people can get through it. It’s just having to stay on top of it.

Danielle: I do know one thing that is, and the tax benefits, one thing that’s kind of frustrating to homeowners that this is mostly or it is just for income-producing properties. So you’ve either gotta be a business or a bed and breakfast or rental unit, something like that.

John: Right.

Danielle: One other thing that I learned that’s very interesting is the tax credits on your passive income. Well, most people don’t have a lot of passive income. So I sat through a presentation. I’m like, “Oh, that makes so much sense.” Banks are willing to pay, buy the tax credits from you, because they have passive income and they can use them. The credits are transferrable. I didn’t know that.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Danielle: When I heard that, I was like, “Oh my goodness. I never would have thought to shop my tax credits to anybody,” but there are people who do it.

John: That’s an interesting point that you bring up. You know, a lot of people say, “Well, if I can’t use them, I lose them.” No, they actually have benefit and people are willing to use them. The other thing too is you’ve heard of those called carbon tax credits for pollution and everything else?

Danielle: Yeah, yeah.

John: Well, let’s say you have a business and you get X amount of tax credits, but your business is pretty efficient, non-polluting, and everything else. You get these credits but you don’t use them all the way or whatever like that. Well, there’s certain other businesses that are more polluting and they need more credits than they actually get from whatever they’re producing, so they’ll buy those credits from you and that helps them out too. There is a market for that.

Danielle: Yes, I would have never even thought that until I was sitting in that presentation. I’m like, “That makes so much sense.” Because most people, even if they’re high-income people, don’t have a lot of passive income, but banks do. I thought that was a really, really interesting thing that I learned.

John: Yeah. And the thing most people don’t understand is you have to match up the types of income and losses to be able to take them. For what you’re just saying there, if you have passive income, you have to have passive losses to match up against them. You can’t take income that you earned from your job and actually offset passive income or investment income in there. That’s a key.

John: What we try to do there is if we do have a client that does have lots of passive losses, we try to find some passive incomes. We call it a PIG PAL strategy. Passive activity losses matched up with passive income generations.

Danielle: Oh, okay. Very cool. Yeah, you understand how to maximize these strategies. I thank you for sharing your knowledge with me and our listeners. Could you tell me, unless, did you have anything else you wanted to share or anything that we didn’t care that you wanted to?

John: Well, I think that’s pretty good.

Danielle: Oh, okay. Very good.

John: There’s so much embedded in there.

Danielle: There is.

John: Yeah.

Danielle: And I’ll definitely, the tax codes or sections that you referenced, on the website resource section, I will definitely put those there so people can go and read them.

John: Okay.

Danielle: And your information will definitely be on the website too, but how can our audience get a hold of you if they have specific questions or they want to use your expertise to help preserve their buildings?

John: Well, they can actually call my office if they want. My phone number directly is 727-388-9024. If, by chance, somebody doesn’t answer the phone, leave a message and we get back to you in a short amount of time.

John: You can also go to my website it’s www.lewaltconsultinggroup.com and leave a message there or we have lots of information on the website that you can contact us or find out some other information about the different tax codes. I think you’ll probably put our website on your-

Danielle: I will, yeah, I’ll definitely make sure that gets put on the website too. We’ll have links, and I’ll have the additional information, and anything else that we think that would be good resources for all of our listeners.

Danielle: Thank you so much for joining us today.

John: Okay, well, yeah. It was a pleasure talking here and one last thing.

Danielle: Oh, sure.

John: With the broadness of the tax code, people think, “Oh, it’s just in general,” or whatever. There’s really something for everybody in there, we just have to sometimes dig deep for you. If you employ certain people, there’s tax credits for employing certain groups of people.

Danielle: Right, yeah. We had just learned that we could get a Made in America tax credit because we manufacture. I never even thought about what we do as manufacturing, but it is! There’s always something in there that you might not even think would apply to you.

John: Yeah, so every situation, individual situation, is different. Don’t think that there’s nothing in there for you. There may be, depending on what you want to do. Hey, it’s worth a phone call or a short email conversation. We can see what we can do for you.

Danielle: Okay, very good. Thank you so much again.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Practical Preservation podcast. The resources discussed during this episode are on our website at practicalpreservationservices.com/podcast.

Announcer: If you received value from this episode and know someone else that would get value from it as well, please share it with them. Join us next week for another episode of the Practical Preservation podcast.

Announcer: For more information on restoring your historic home, visit us at practicalpreservationservices.com

 

Alison Hardy from Window Woman of New England joins me to discuss the state of window restoration.  If you’d ever wondered what preservationist discuss this episode is for you.  We discuss:

  • Can your windows be saved or are they really beyond repair?
  • Repair vs. Replacement mindset
  • The education process to combat the replacement window marketing machine

Contact information for Alison plus additional resources:

Alison Hardy – Window Woman of New England

978-532-2070

https://windowpreservationalliance.org/

Bio:
Alison Hardy is owner of Window Woman of New England, Inc. Her company restores windows in the North of Boston/Merrimac Valley region. Alison has a BA from Denison University and an MBA from Boston University, only some of which is useful when scraping paint. When not restoring windows for other people she works on restoring her 1850’s farmhouse in Topsfield, MA.

Transcript:

Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in to the Practical Preservation podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website practicalpreservationservices.com for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not yet done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, and Sound Cloud. Also like us on Facebook.

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Practical Preservation podcast hosted by Danielle Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use, as well as future generations. Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home. Educating by sharing our from the trenches preservation knowledge, and our guest’s expertise balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character, and beauty of your period home.

Danielle: Thank you for joining us for the Practical Preservation podcast. Today, we have Alison Hardy. She is the owner of Window Woman of New England, Incorporated. Her company restores windows in the north of Boston Merrimack Valley region. Alison has a BA from Denison University and an MBA from Boston University, only some of which is useful when scraping paint. When not restoring windows for other people, she works on restoring her 1850s farmhouse house in Topsfield, Massachusetts. Alison, thank you for joining us.

Alison: Thank you for inviting me, Danielle.

Danielle: Thank you. I know that we have met in person a couple of times, so I’m excited to have you here to share your knowledge and expertise. How did you get started in preservation? It kind of sounds like it was a meandering road, similar to mine.

Alison: Indeed, this is about my third career. I actually trained to do textile design and costume design and did that for many years, and sold large format printers for printing textiles. Then when my husband and I bought an old house, suddenly like most people in preservation, you start looking at your old house and appreciating your old house and getting interested in old houses. It really came about from owning a wreck of a house with windows in terrible condition. I said, “This is crazy. I must be able to fix these somehow.”

Danielle: Very good. Did you start at restoring your windows yourself? Did you learn yourself or did you take some classes? How did you figure out what you needed to do?

Alison: I am self-taught. Luckily, my husband builds furniture as a hobby, so he had a wood shop which was very handy. Then I am one of those people who will just go out and research a project to death, so I read as much as I could, went to some events on preservation and talked to as many people as I could, and just started chipping away at paint and figuring out how to re-putty a window, which is daunting at first, but after you do a couple hundred you get really good at it.

Danielle: Right, we joked that people, if they’re going to try to do it their selves should start in the back of the house.

Alison: Definitely, definitely somewhere you don’t want to see. In fact, the house that we’re in now, the first windows that I did are embarrassing.

Danielle: Oh no.

Alison: They’re my walk of shame every day. I’m like, “Oh, I really should redo those,” because I just didn’t have the patience for getting all of the paint off and doing all of the repair techniques that now we do.

Danielle: Right, and the little details do matter. We try to impart that, too, to our employees. That, just because you’re scraping paint doesn’t mean that that’s not one of the most important things that you’re doing on this window.

Alison: True, and it’s funny, we just had a batch of windows come in that had been scraped by an abatement company, and my crew was horrified at how badly they were done. I’m like, “Well, that’s why we insist on being neat and tidy and doing things so that you don’t harm the window, you actually make it better.”

Danielle: Yes, yes. Important lessons. How did you get started then selling your services to the public?

Alison: Well, funny enough, a friend of ours bought an apartment building in a town not far from us and said, “It’s got a bunch of windows in horrible shape. Do you want to tackle those?” I thought, “Sure, why not? I’ll give you a hand.” Which, turned out to be a huge project. I’ve never seen so much nicotine on a window in my life. That was sort of the cutting teeth to, yes I think I can do this for other people.

Alison: Then, you know, God bless America, you can hang out a shingle and start a business. That’s pretty much what I did and started off with some projects for friends, and then those friends knew other people. The good thing about the old house world is that they all talk to each other about products and services and suppliers. Luckily the word got out quickly.

Danielle: Right, that’s one thing I’ve noticed too is that, people are very willing to share their knowledge and information, which is very helpful. You know, even contractors and crafts people, they will share the information because it’s not, even though you might be a competitor, everybody is working towards the same goal.

Alison: It seems like once you find people who cherish older houses and older buildings, we want to support those businesses and we want to let other people know that this is a contractor or somebody who gets old houses just like we do, instead of the “rip them apart and make them into planned cottages.”

Danielle: Yeah, that kind of takes us into my next question. Why do you preserve windows? What makes you passionate about this?

Alison: I do so many estimates now, and it’s always amazing to me the condition of older original windows. You know, to somebody who’s not as observant as I am about windows, they may look terrible. The paint’s peeling, the glazing’s falling off, but to me, I’m like, “But look at the corners and the joints. They’re still in really good shape. They’re still beautifully built. They’re still serving their function. They fit the building. If we just do a little bit of repairs to them, they’ll be beautiful again.” It’s exciting, because most people who call me in kind of know that in the back of their mind, so it’s a validation of saying, “I thought they looked pretty good.” I’m like, “Yes, they are really good. Let’s save them.”

Danielle: Yes, you don’t have to listen to the person that told you, you just need to get new windows.

Alison: Right, I always use the analogy, if you got a flat tire, would somebody say you had to throw out the car and get a new one? It’s the same thing. You have a broken sash, it’s not the end of the world. It can be fixed.

Danielle: Right, right, very, very true. Since you kind of have been learning as you go, what do you wish that you knew when you started that you know now?

Alison: I think if I had any idea how much time was required for doing windows, I probably would have been terrified. You have to acknowledge that it’s a very labor intensive process and there’s not many shortcuts. If you do take shortcuts, it usually ends up costing you in the long run. I think if I really had thought about how much time was involved, I probably would have had a different idea.

Danielle: Yes. That’s true, and that’s one thing that I’ve been trying to explain to people. The majority of our cost is labor. We’re paying people to do this work.

Alison: Yes, glass isn’t a big of expense, wood isn’t a big expense, it’s just the people.

Danielle: Right, right. Have you made any major mistakes that you’re willing to make a public confession about?

Alison: I think undercharging in the beginning made my life a lot more difficult. Once you start charging fairly, your life gets a little bit better.

Danielle: That is really true, and from a business standpoint, that’s I think pretty typical for people who, especially are doing the hands on work, they do undervalue the contributions that they’re making.

Alison: It’s true. It’s hard to believe that people don’t really know what kind of value and cost to assign to window repairs. They know what replacement windows cost if they’ve been shopping around, but they really don’t know, and so it’s up to us to give a fair price. That we know how much time it’s going to take and we know what we need to do to get it done right, and it’s going to cost. It’s not a cheap process. We try to be as efficient as we can, but at the end of the day it’s still labor hours.

Danielle: Right, yeah.

Alison: I have to say, yeah, the other big mistake that I am always teetering on the edge of is I got asked to look at a project and the client said, “Well, you know, I had your competitor work on my last house and I don’t want to have them back.” I get all puffed up and go, “Yes, because we’re better.” It turns out that that’s a very bad mistake, because they’re usually very bad clients. I’ve learned to not get my ego all puffed up and think that we’re better than the other guy. No, sometimes they’re just bad clients.

Danielle: Yeah, and that’s true. Sometimes you do have to kind of see those warning signs and see how the development process goes before you make a commitment to them.

Alison: Yeah.

Danielle: What is the biggest challenge that you see in preservation, or even just in your corner of preservation?

Alison: I know, my very tiny corner of windows. Really, the hard thing is awareness. I can’t tell you how many times people say, “I had no idea anybody did this type of work. I had no idea anybody did this type of work.” It’s frustrating because we don’t have the big advertising budgets of the large replacement companies. We’re very small voices out in the world and it’s hard to get the message out there. I think that’s why we’re so grateful to word of mouth, is that that’s the most efficient way we can to spread the message, but it’s slow and painful and there’s nothing worse than finding out that somebody replaced their windows unnecessarily because they just had no idea that they had an option.

Danielle: That’s very true. We’re fighting the mentality of the past 50 or 60 years of being product installers rather than crafts people too, and looking at it as something that’s repairable rather than just having to replace it. All of that has been pushed by advertising. That is a very big challenge within preservation.

Alison: I think we all sort of cringe at the TV shows that people just take sledgehammers to buildings without even stopping to think about it, or at least not on camera they stop to think about it. It’s so maddening as a preservationist. You know, “Why are they just taking it down in the most destructive way possible? You can take a cabinet off a wall without having to take a sledgehammer to it.” It just drives me crazy.

Danielle: Right, it wouldn’t be as good TV.

Alison: Yeah, right?

Danielle: Do you see any trends in preservation? Any maybe glimmers of hope?

Alison: You know, I have been doing some estimates recently for young couples who are buying their first house and I keep hearing this, “I want to do it right. I want to be real. I grew up in a house with vinyl windows, I grew up in a house with vinyl siding and I don’t want my children to grow up in that kind of house.” I think this whole makers movement, you know, people wanting to get their hands dirty and to do projects and to build things is very encouraging, because once you do get your hands on something, then you start to appreciate it more. That, to me, has been exciting to hear people talk about they want to save things instead of throwing them away. I’m like, “Thank you, finally we’re getting to that point where we understand how bad all of the debris we create is.”

Danielle: Yes, yes, and I think it is values and it’s a mentality because I’ll even take shoes to get fixed and clothes to the tailor. It is, it’s a different mentality of you don’t have to just go out and get new, you can fix what you have, especially if you have a good quality. Then it’s really not more expensive, because you’re not paying it over and over again.

Alison: Right. We’ve had great success of going to some of the green fairs, even a lot of events that focus on local and sustainable foods, because that same mentality carries forward into your house. If you don’t want to eat fake food, why do you want to have fake windows? There’s a continuum here that it all sort of makes sense. Why would you want to create acres of trash and then demolish parts of your house unnecessarily? It all kind of goes together.

Danielle: It does, yeah, that’s very true. How do you keep up with trends in preservation?

Alison: I love to go to events. I think that’s probably the hardest thing for a lot of people who are working in the trades, is that they don’t have big travel budgets and they can’t get out to things. Making an effort to go and meet with fellow preservationists, we just had a wonderful meeting in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania in February with the Window Preservation Alliance. This is a trade group that was formed two, three years ago now to bring together window restorers to raise awareness of window restoration, that we actually got started because there was a preservation conference that had one of the big replacement window contractors as a sponsor.

Danielle: Oh, yes.

Alison: We said, “This is crazy. How can we represent our side of the argument when we don’t even have a seat at the table?” The Window Preservation Alliance, we’re a trade association so we now have funds so that we can sponsor events so that we have the other side of the argument, we’re at the table so that we can be part of those discussions. It’s exciting how we’re finding more events, we’re helping to sponsor events.

Alison: There’s one coming up in Cincinnati in May that I’m going to where we’re going to be restoring windows in two buildings. There is one in San Antonio coming up. Then in September in Detroit the Preservation Trade Network will be putting on an event too, so I’m excited about the number of opportunities that we have to meet with one another and talk about what we do. We’re kind of an obscure little profession here, and it’s nice to meet other people who know what you’re talking about.

Danielle: Yes, and that’s exciting that you’re going all over the country. I wouldn’t necessarily think of restoring windows in Texas. There are buildings there that have windows to be restored, so that’s going kind of off of what people would necessarily would think about would be where the historic places are.

Alison: It’s nice that they are people who do this for a living mixed in with community people, because a lot of times homeowners do want to learn how to do things, how to get involved, but they don’t necessarily want to tackle the whole project. As my colleague Steve [Coullion 00:16:23] calls it, “The pros and the Joes working together,” we get a lot more done in a short period of time.

Danielle: Yeah, very, very exciting. That also helps build awareness in the community that there are other options. I know my mom used to sit on the Historic Commission here in Lancaster City, and people would come in wanting to put vinyl windows in, and they would say, “Well, there are other options,” and people would say, “No, there aren’t.” Then it’s a whole education process. That’s a way to do it before even those decisions are being made. That is very, very exciting. Do you have a favorite resource?

Alison: Since May is preservation month, last year was the first year we tried to get all members of the Window Preservation Alliance to hold an event for preservation month. We did one called a sash revival, so we encouraged people to bring in their windows, which most of them have broken glass, and we showed them how to cut glass, fit glass, and glaze a window. It was a really fun event. My crew had a great time working with people. Most of them came from the next town over, which has a fabulous collection of old houses.

Alison: There were actually events all across the country and we’re hoping to do that again this year in May. We had everything from, they did a driveway pop up, they just put a tent in their driveway and had people work on glazing windows. Somebody had a booth at a farmer’s market talking about window repairs. Then some people like me opening up their shop to have the public come in and learn more about what we do and actually get their hands on a window. It’s really fun to have events like that to, again, trying to raise awareness of what we do.

Danielle: Yes, that sounds like fun. To tie it into the national trust, making their whole push for preservation too for that month, it helps build awareness on multiple fronts, so I think that’s really great and exciting. I’m kind of sad that I didn’t think of it.

Alison: Some days you just have, and again, a lot of times it’s just hanging out talking to our other fellow window restorers going, “How can we do this?”

Danielle: Right.

Alison: “Well, what if we just had people bring in windows?”

Danielle: We’ve even had classes before, but we never had people bring their own windows in, but that makes so much more sense. Then they leave with something that’s done. They don’t have to go back and kind of tackle it themselves.

Alison: I was trying to do the sad face/happy face as people came in and left, but I didn’t do so good at capturing my photographs. It was nice to be able to have something they accomplished in one day.

Danielle: Yes, yes, yes, and it makes it a little bit less daunting I would think for them. They know that they can at least, if a pane of glass breaks, they know that they can fix that and it doesn’t take all day.

Alison: Right. I think we’ve all had the frustrating experience of trying to get glazing putty to look neat. We’ve got a couple tips and techniques that we can show people to get them over that frustrating stage of, “It’s just all goopy and it keeps pulling up and it makes a lumpy mess.”

Danielle: Right.

Alison: I don’t know what to say. We’ll help you.

Danielle: This will make it easier.

Alison: Right.

Danielle: What do you think makes you different from other businesses that do this work?

Alison: You know, I’m finding there’s more similarities than dissimilarities in what we do. We’ve become one of the larger shops. I have 10 employees, and so we’re able to tackle bigger projects. I think we’re also fortunate that in the Boston area there are a number of window restoration shops, so if we have a really huge project, we can divvy it up and all work together. It’s very much a collaborative type of business, which is great. It makes it much more fun than being a competitor.

Danielle: Right, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Okay, well thank you so much for joining us today. Why don’t you let us know how our audience can get a hold of you.

Alison: Probably the best way is through our website, which is window-woman-ne.com. There is a contact us page which has our email address on it, or you can always call the workshop at 978-532-2070.

Danielle: Very good, thank you.

Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Practical Preservation podcast. The resources discussed during this episode are on our website at practicalpreservationservices.com/podcast. If you received value from this episode and know someone else that would get value from it as well, please share it with them. Join us next week for another episode of the Practical Preservation podcast. For more information on restoring your historic home, visit us at practicalpreservationservices.com.

Chad Martin from Partners for Sacred Places met with me to discuss the work he does helping to preserve religious buildings from demolition through adaptive reuse and the creation of community resources.

Some of the topics we discussed include:

  • The economic impact of preservation.
  • How the work Partners for Sacred Places allows congregations and parishes to continue their mission as a community resource without selling their valuable real estate to developers.
  • The National Fund providing capital grants for preservation needs.  As Chad explains, when a church is choosing between giving money to programs that care for basic human needs and repairing the stained glass the restoration project goes to the bottom of the list.  The National Fund helps to insure both needs are met.

Contact information for Chad Martin plus additional resources:

Partners for Sacred Spaces
215-567-3234 x19

Facebook page Danielle referenced: https://www.facebook.com/abandonedamerica.us/

Bio: Chad Martin, Director, National Fund for Sacred Places
Prior to his role at Partners, Chad was a pastor at Community Mennonite Church of Lancaster (PA). During his pastoral tenure the congregation developed an in-house art gallery, redeveloped an award-winning parking lot in accordance with the city’s green infrastructure plan, and substantially increased building use by community partners. Prior to this, Chad was the Ceramics Studio Coordinator at the Manchester Craftsmen’s Guild (Pittsburgh, PA). He has served on several boards of directors in Pittsburgh and Lancaster, including as a founding board members of the Union Project – an example of best practice for adaptive reuse of a historic religious property – and as Assistant Moderator of Atlantic Coast Conference (MC USA). He has written articles on art and/or theology and spirituality for several publications, including Ceramics Monthly, Worship, and Conrad Grebel Review. His ordained for pastoral ministry in Mennonite Church USA. Chad is a graduate of Goshen College (BA), Pittsburgh Theological Seminary (MA), and Leadership Lancaster.

Transcript:

Announcer: Thank you for tuning into The Practical Preservation Podcast. Please take a moment to visit our website: practicalpreservationservices.com for additional information and tips to help you restore your historical home. If you’ve not yet done so, please subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, and SoundCloud. And also like us on Facebook. Welcome to The Practical Preservation Podcast, hosted by Danielle Keperling. Keperling Preservation Services is a family owned business based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, dedicated to the preservation of our built architectural history for today’s use, as well as future generations. Our weekly podcast provides you with expert advice specific to the unique needs of renovating a historic home, educating by sharing our from the trenches preservation knowledge and our guest’s expertise, balancing modern needs while maintaining the historical significance, character, and beauty of your period home.

Danielle: Thank you for coming into The Practical Preservation Podcast. We’re actually doing this interview in person. And today we have Chad Martin with us, the director of The National Fund for Sacred Places. Prior to his role at partners Chad was the pastor at Community Mennonite Church of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. During his pastoral tenure the congregation developed an in-house art gallery, redeveloped an award winning parking lot in accordance with the city’s green infrastructure plan, and substantially increased building use by community partners. Prior to this, Chad was a ceramics studio coordinator at The Manchester Craftsman’s Guild in Pittsburgh. He has served on several boards of directors in Pittsburgh and Lancaster, including as a founding board member of The Union Project, an example of best practice for adaptive reuse in the historic religious property. As an assistant moderator of The Atlantic Coast Conference MCUSA, he has written articles on art and/or theology and spirituality for several publications, including Ceramics Monthly, Worship, and Conrad Grebel Review. He is ordained for pastoral ministry in The Mennonite Church, USA.

Danielle: Chad is a graduate of Goshen College, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and Leadership Lancaster. Chad, thank you for joining us for The Practical Preservation Podcast.

Chad: Absolutely. It’s a delight to be with you.l

Danielle: Thank you again. How did you get started in preservation? I know you kind of came about it in a round about way.

Chad: Yeah, that’s a great question. So as I was saying kind of coming into this, I do not come at this work from a preservation background. Although I should say, I can maybe start that by saying what we do with The National Fund [crosstalk 00:02:55] for Sacred Places. So Partners for Sacred Places was formed as a nonprofit. We’re a national nonprofit organization based in Philadelphia, formed in the late 1980’s. So almost 30 years ago. At that time in the preservation world there was this kind of brewing conflict, and definitely a robust conversation going on in urban centers like New York, Boston, and Chicago where there was this tension between communities of faith, congregations and parishes, and the preservation community. It was the first time in this country where you saw development pressures for property kind of wooing congregations to consider selling their buildings, or selling heir rights, or those kinds of dynamics-

Danielle: For the real estate?

Chad: For real estate development. Congregations that may have been struggling saw this as an opportunity to endow their programs for years into the future by selling valuable property, which was of course in direct tension with historic preservationists in those very same communities saying, “Even as development pressures increase, we want to be preserving buildings that matter to the community.” So those came [crosstalk 00:04:18].

Danielle: … have stood there for how long [crosstalk 00:04:20] so much a part of the community’s history.

Chad: Exactly. So in places like New York and Boston churches that have been there for 300 years or more, in some cases. So, out of that tension, and like a lot of urban development things, New York was leading the way with some of these conversations. Out of that, Partners was formed as a nonprofit that tried to bridge that gap, and some of that tension, between the preservation community and the interests of congregations. So that’s a kind of long backstory to say that’s the backdrop of the work we do at Partners. Over the years we have had a vested interest in how preservation can enable congregations and parishes to follow their mission of serving their communities, rather than losing their buildings, or selling buildings as a way to [crosstalk 00:05:19].

Danielle: … continue their mission.

Chad: Yeah.

Danielle: I don’t know if this is something that you directly work with, but the churches that get closed in those communities, do you work with those buildings then to find a suitable reuse?

Chad: Yeah, absolutely. The program I direct is The National Fund, which is a new grant making program funded by the [00:05:43] endowment in order to make large capital grants with congregations that are thriving, that have preservation needs in their buildings.

Danielle: Okay, so you’re more that other end of the spectrum where there’s people still attending, but they just don’t have the money to upkeep necessarily that building?

Chad: Exactly. And you know, there’s a wide range of capacity in there. But, virtually every leader of a historic congregation will tell you no matter how well endowed they are there’s always a need for more. Preservation of buildings is expensive, and often for churches falls to the bottom of the list. If they’re choosing between giving money to programs that take care of basic human needs like food, clothing, shelter, if they’re choosing between that and repairing the stained glass windows, usually they’re going to do the program stuff and hope that some day they get to the windows.

Danielle: I know one thing that really opened my eyes to the role of churches and preservation, and promoting art and all of that, was St James just underwent a big restoration project where they worked on safety. I went through a presentation where they talked about all the different things they did to make it for future use, but also respecting that historic. And one of the things that Father David said … I went on a field trip where they were making the clay tiles by hand still at The Mercer Tile Works. He said churches have always promoted that kind of work, and he felt like it was his duty to be a patron and keep that skill and that craft going. And I thought, “That’s really the type work we do, too.” And it opened my eyes to the role of the church. And then I thought back of my history, of the Renaissance, and all those painters, and all of that whole thing. It kind of tied it together in my mind.

Chad: Yeah, absolutely. Historically, churches have been literally the temples at the center of civic life. The story of the 20th century, and now into the 21st century, as you kind of alluded to, is that church participation has been declining. The role of the Christian church, at least, in civic life is very different than it was 100 years ago, or 200 years ago. And yet we still have these vestiges to that era in the physical buildings. Our work is really to step into that gap and say, even as the religious landscape of the country changes, how can we continue to preserve these facilities as a community resource? And usually now it takes more than just the members of the congregation to make that happen. It takes really a full community saying, “This is a resource that matters to us.”

Danielle: And it’s important.

Chad: Yeah. Which really I’m sure puts it in line with many other preservation efforts. No preservation effort happens without a broad [crosstalk 00:08:43] coalitions.

Danielle: And there’s often a discussion of the economic impact of preservation. And I know, prepping for this, reading the economic, you even have things on the website talking about the economic impact of churches in communities, and I had never thought about that. But that really is something that is valuable and should be highlighted so that people aren’t just saying, “Oh, that’s a building that doesn’t pay taxes.” All of those things that go into those community discussions.

Chad: Yeah, absolutely. You’re hitting at the heart of a piece that has been really important at Partners. Very quickly, in it’s early days at Partners in the late 80’s and early 90’s, these conversations started emerging about, “Why should we save these buildings?” Which pushed our staff back to articulating a narrative about why these places matter. And when you’re talking about things like a tax base, and increasing revenue for cash strapped cities looking for revenue wherever they can, that quickly turned to an economic conversation. Church folks aren’t really used to speaking in economic terms about the value of what they do, but I think that’s one of the really important contributions our organization has made over the years. Going back to the mid 90’s, late 90’s, our organization helped sponsor a major research project looking at the economic value of what churches provide. I say churches, but really communities of faith of any religious tradition. So they’re a community. Really aside from everything they do that is the focus of their worship or religious life, looking at the economic impact of employing people in a community.

Chad: The effects of providing services that are often appreciated by the community but under the radar in terms of a dollar amount in the sense of what’s the true value of this? And then we did a major update to that research just in the last couple of years. And we’ve dubbed that the economic halo effect, meaning it radiates out. It’s not just what happens in the doors of the church. You know I, just a couple months ago, visited one of our awardees, which is a Catholic basilica in Milwaukee. It’s an amazing facility. This is not very typical for religious buildings. It was the most visited tourist site in Milwaukee, like the highest rated by Trip Advisor for a couple of years. So they’re definitely a major asset to that community. And we did a halos study of the economic impact of the basilica and the community. They’re a destination wedding venue because it’s such a grand space, so people will come from out of town to have a wedding there. What’s the economic impact of all the guests who come and spend the night there, buy meals there?

Danielle: Right, everything that goes into a wedding.

Chad: Yeah. All the baptisms that happen there, the extended family that come in maybe from the broader region, maybe from even hours away. And we worked to have conservative estimates of that, so this isn’t guesswork. But honestly saying, “What’s the economic activity going on around that place?” And in their case it was in the millions of dollars annually that ripple out from what they do as a basilica that’s not about the dollars spent on a baptism, or the dollars spent on a wedding, or a worship service, but it’s all the dollars spent in the community.

Danielle: The people employed and all the things that go into making the celebrations.

Chad: Yeah. So that’s become an important part of our work, to help congregations tell their story well about why they matter to the [inaudible 00:12:42]. And in some of the cases where churches close frankly they don’t matter a whole lot. They haven’t figured out how to transcend all the changes around them to stay relevant to that community. And we try to be honest with communities when they’re in that place too. But there are many historic congregations that continue to serve their communities in meaningful ways that are often under the radar, and not seen by the broader community as fully as they could be.

Danielle: It’s very interesting to me to look at it because that’s often the way that they look at restoration because restoration is so much more labor intensive than new construction. You’re going in and repairing things rather than buying new materials. You’re not just installing things. Looking at it through that lens I can definitely see how a church, I had never looked at it that way, but how a church does impact the community and all the people around it.

Chad: Yeah, absolutely. Even if folks aren’t always fully aware of what happens inside the doors of a religious space they become symbols to the community. So fi they’re lost to a community how do you quantify what the loss is? And you know, that transcends churches. That’s a historic preservation-

Danielle: Oh, yeah. And that landmark building.

Chad: Yeah, what happens when we lose these landmark buildings? And of course we can’t save all of them. The preservation community is well aware of that, we can’t save all of them.

Danielle: But there are some that are worth definitely saving and preserving so that we have them into the future.

Chad: If I could I wanted to circle back to your question about how we [crosstalk 00:14:26] churches.

Danielle: Sure, definitely.

Chad: … that are not thriving, and what happens with those buildings. Because that is really one of the emerging questions for an organization like ours. In the changing religious landscape we live in right now, increasingly I think this is probably in every community across the country, that’s definitively in every urban community across the country. There are grand historic church buildings that are in disrepair, or facing challenges because either the congregation is dwindling and dying, and ends up closing its doors. Maybe a church sees the writing on the wall and they sell the building, then another congregation steps in. These in some ways are some of the real fun success stories of the work. In some cases there’s no longer a viable congregation that makes sense for a property, but it is still seen as a community asset. So the community rallies to say, “How can we take ownership of this?” That’s really what I was part of with The Union Project in Pittsburgh 10 or 15 years ago.

Danielle: So the building, what did you transform it into? Or how did you reuse it?

Chad: That’s a great adaptive reuse story. That was a crumbling church building. The actual bricks and mortar stories of like hauling trash? That could be a whole podcast itself, just the horror stories of bringing back to life a building that’s been neglected for decades. Numbers of dead pigeons and things like that.

Danielle: Oh yeah, I’ve been there.

Chad: I’m sure you have. Probably everyone interested in this kind of conversation has been there. First of all, the group who bought it was just a group of community members who came together and had a vision for like, ‘We literally walked by this church building every day to get to the bus stop and go to work. It was a symbol of our community and yet it was just falling apart in front of our eyes.”

Danielle: Was it not being used?

Chad: Yeah, there was technically a congregation of like five people meeting around a space heater in a backroom. It clearly had become overwhelmed years ago, and it just was in total disrepair. This was years of sweat equity, but we built a nonprofit organization that was a non sectarian, non faith based, nonprofit organization. Although many of us came from a perspective of communities of faith being important to our formation. Came together to form a nonprofit organization and cast a vision of really developing it as a kind of multipurpose community center. They still exist as an organization, and they still have been taking good care of that building. The uses have kind of shifted a little bit over time as they’ve moved into their own vision, and the founders stepped away. The original vision was around arts, community and faith. So early on we did actually find a congregation that was looking for a home that was brought in as a tenant, and they’re still there. But they’re there as a tenant, they’re an equal partner at the table with all sorts of other nonprofits, community groups. So now it’s used for an event space, a wedding venue.

Chad: There are art studios in the basement, there are nonprofit offices in what would’ve been Sunday school rooms back in the day. And it really came back to life as a community resource.

Danielle: And now the building is being used, and it’s used often. It’s not just sitting there and just used one day a week. And that’s what the building is meant to do.

Chad: Yeah. So in many ways it is serving the kinds of purposes it was built to do in the first place. 150 years ago congregations had a prominence in the community where they could do that tall under their own umbrella. You know, people’s lives revolved around around the life of the church. That’s just simply not true in many cases now. So many of the same kind of services and activities happen there, but they’re under an array of organizations that all are there to serve the community. Some are faith based and some aren’t and they’ve got to find ways to work alongside each other.

Danielle: That made me think of even the parochial schools and the building sitting empty now. There is space there that could be used, and I know that probably falls outside of what you do. Do you focus just on the-

Chad: Yeah, although very closely aligned.

Danielle: I know just in Lancaster there are several buildings that are sitting empty that could have some kind of community center or support kind of thing.

Chad: Well, yeah. And I think truly Lancaster is seeing this go on in every community across the country. It is certainly happening in Lancaster. I’ve lived here 10 years, been here longer. If I think of just the 10 years I’ve been here I have seen historic churches sold by their founding congregation to another congregation. I’ve seen that happen three or four times just in the 10 years I’ve been here. I see churches that I know there are only a handful of people showing up on Sunday morning. Some day really soon that church is going to be on the market and we’re all going to wonder, “How are we going to deal with that hugs, landmark building?” And we’ve seen others. This is one of the interesting things. This certainly happens in other urban centers too. There have been at least two, and maybe three, just in Lancaster that have been converted to high end residences. So Partners vision is, it is best that these are restored as community assets of the community. But there are cases where we kind of walk alongside churches that end up being abandoned.

Chad: You know the saddest stories are wend then are demolished. But it certainly happens, and I think increasingly there’s a very real earnest reality that we have to be strategic. We, meaning everyone involved in this work, about which places can be saved with integrity, and which ones probably can’t. Because there are just too many in flux right now

Danielle: There are. I went through the parochial school in Lancaster. If you look at the number of Catholic churches that are in close proximity to each other, and because they were built for different ethnicities, or different congregations, different nationalities. That’s very hard to sustain, and those are very hard conversations to have because if you don’t have enough people attending to sustain it then you get to that point where the building’s worth preserving, but can it stay in this form or does it need to transform? I think if you go through the criteria for a national landmark I’m sure most of them would be on the register. But then you have to think, you know how Christ Church is one of the ones that you funded. That is definitely tied to our national history. But then you have the other ones that are still very important because they’re tied to people’s history, but maybe they’re not as noteworthy and they didn’t have the famous people. And that is a balance, and I think that would be really hard because the buildings are mostly all beautiful, and even in disrepair are beautiful.

Danielle: I don’t know if you’re familiar, there’s a book that’s like abandoned places. I can’t think of the author’s name, but he went into these places and there’s one church in Philadelphia that he went to every day as it was being demolished. Even those pictures are beautiful, as have the building’s gone.

Chad: Yeah, the photography can be beautiful, but the place is heartbreaking.

Danielle: Yeah, it is. So I don’t envy the position you’re in. We usually get involved when people are ready to save something. We don’t have to make those hard decisions.

Chad: Help decide. Well, and we don’t really either. Although with the grant making program we’re often in the same boat where we come alongside whenever we can. Although with the grant making program we do face these hard choices. So with the national fund, this was created to speak into all the things we’re describing, and actually get some financial resources to these congregations. But even still we’re funding like 12 across the country this year that really [crosstalk 00:23:24].

Danielle: How many applications do you get?

Chad: We’re in our second year of the program. The first years was an invitation only round. So we have about two weeks to go until our due date for the first fully open application round where we marketed this across the country. So it’s still a little bit yet to be seen, but it’s looking like we will have something like 100 plus applications for about 12 slots.

Danielle: Those are hard choices.

Chad: And behind those 100 there’s probably another 1000 that would technically qualify for our program, but do they rise to the top is the most important right now. I should tell a couple stories though.

Danielle: Oh, sure. Definitely.

Chad: [crosstalk 00:24:08]. It reminds me of the range of places we do find because you’re exactly right. We have to be strategic. We look at a couple factors. We’re going for a building that’s really significant maybe in a couple of different ways. It might be architecturally significant. The history of the congregation might be significant. So in the case of Christ Church in Philadelphia It hits both of those. But, however you want to rank that they’re in the top of both of those. Ben Franklin is buried in their burial ground, the building is this amazing Colonial era building. But the other piece that’s really important to us, and this goes back to the kind of research we were talking about earlier. I think really the whole preservation community is moving this way too, where the line I’ve even heard. Stephanie Meeks, the director of The National Trust for Historic Preservation, uses this line frequently that this is not just about bricks and mortar, and preserving these places completely outside of their context. It’s about taking care of spaces that still matter to their community.

Danielle: And I think, at least in the preservation community in Lancaster, in the organizations there’s an organization just devoted to saving places, and then one that’s devoted to the people’s stories. And I think to marry those two would really make more people realize that preservation is about all of our history, it’s collective.

Chad: So Christ Church is a great example because, for all their noteworthiness architecturally and historically, there are other churches that rise to that level in the country, but one of the real stand out features of Christ Church is they have really worked hard over the last couple decades to be completely relevant as a community resource for Philadelphia.

Danielle: I wasn’t aware of that. That’s great.

Chad: Yeah. Oh, it’s a fantastic story. One of the ways they have done that is opened their, it’s called Neighborhood House, but it would be kind of a parish house that’s adjacent to the church building, which is historic in its own right, but it’s like 155 years old or something like that. They have fully restored and updated that facility to be used as a multipurpose venue, mostly as a theater [inaudible 00:26:32].
Danielle: Oh, that’s interesting.

Chad: These numbers aren’t exact because it’s off the top of my head, but it’s something on the order of like 150 plus arts organizations have used their facility as a venue in the last year.

Danielle: Oh, that’s great. So that’s like every other day.

Chad: Yeah, it’s almost every day there is a theater group in their building either rehearsing or performing. So that’s amazing.

Danielle: Yeah, it is.

Chad: This 300 plus year old congregation that has this weight of history, that on its own it would be reasons to put [inaudible 00:27:10] into saving it. What really puts it over the top is the way they have worked. And as a former pastor this is what matters to me more than just a place that mattered in history.

Danielle: Yeah, and I was going to ask about that. Do you feel like that brings you a different perspective in [crosstalk 00:27:24]?

Chad: Yeah, totally. We have other staff who come from much more traditional preservation background. And I really respect and, as a newcomer to this work, I learn a lot from what they teach me. But that being said, my perspective is often driven by what’s the impact of these congregations now? And not just in traditional social service ways, but are they finding innovative, dynamic ways to engage with the community?

Danielle: Yeah. I think that is an interesting perspective, and I think that in this type of work, in preservation, and having the different perspectives helps everybody see that it’s not just a static place in history, it’s an evolution. And the impact now is just as important if we can balance both, and honor both.

Chad: Yeah. So that’s a real important piece for our program, we’re constantly looking for both of those pieces. And we end up saying no to some projects who don’t understand why we said no to them. [inaudible 00:28:34] like, “But don’t you understand how important this building is?” “Yes, and you’re not doing anything with it right now.” So it’s really important to us that it’s continuing to serve its community. That being said, there are also these other situations. Christ Church, that I was just describing, they’re a great example. They have lots of resources and there’s always a need for more. So we’re [crosstalk 00:28:58] but really they have access to a lot of resources. We work with some others that are in really tenuous situations. So I think of a really wonderful little African Methodist Episcopal Zion congregation in North Carolina that we’re funding this year. They got on our radar because they’ve been out of their building for 10 years because it suffered hurricane damage. They got on our radar because they were listed as one of the most endangered places by The National Trust a few years ago.

Chad: So the National Trust brought them to the table. They have capital needs beyond what they can muster themselves. Even though they have continued to thrive, they’ve been meeting off location for 10 plus years.

Danielle: And they’re still-

Chad: Yeah, they continue to thrive, continue to serve their community in lots of important ways. This is a church built by a prominent African American freedman soon after The Civil War. The congregation was formed in the Reconstruction Era after The Civil War, the church was built in the 1890’s by one of the most prominent African American families in that community in North Carolina.

Danielle: So it’s a lot of history too?

Chad: There’s a lot of history there. And it’s a more simple looking, kind of country, North Carolina church, but what an important place historically.

Danielle: And from a historical perspective, because I’m sure at that time it was the education center, and the community center, and everything else that, that Reconstruction era required.

Chad: Exactly. It’s a classic Reconstruction era story. White folks from the north came down and started the school next door, and eventually the same African American builder built he school next door. And what an amazing legacy of a community that probably was severely lacking in resources and had every obstacle, still built a beautiful little church.

Danielle: And that was probably their safe place, too?

Chad: Yeah.

Danielle: Within the community. It’s not as prominent, but it’s definitely an important piece of our history.

Chad: Yeah, and in that case the goal is to get them back in that building so that they can reestablish that sense of home.

Danielle: How do you work with the congregations? Do you do a matching funds? Or how does that process work?

Chad: Yeah, that’s a great question. Our grant making program has a couple different pieces to it. One, and this is kind of the hook for everyone, is the big capital grant. Of course, they would all love to get $250,000 from us. And anyone who’s awarded in the program, the goal is sincerely to get them that money. But along the way we do a lot of capacity building, and assistance with their project. So we have small planning grants that help pay for things like architectural fees or-

Danielle: Project development?

Chad: Yeah, project development. All those things that add up for any project along the way. And those are modest sized planning grants, but the goal is to have at least enough in the planning grants so encourage them to do all that good professional project work. And then each congregation is expected to participate in a group training. We do a couple different levels of that, but the basic on is simply like, “How do you run a good capital campaign as a church?” Many of these congregations have not done a capital campaign in a generation, or maybe ever. And you know that North Carolina church, they’re doing great. They’re a hardworking church, but they don’t have a big budget, and they’re looking at like a million dollars to be able to get back in the building.

Danielle: Right. And for a smaller congregation that’s very daunting.

Chad: That’s a big deal. So just getting the some basic tools for how do you set up an effective campaign. All the while encouraging them to get professional help with that too.

Danielle: That was what I was thinking was, could they even plan stages so that they’re protecting the building, and that’s how we [inaudible 00:33:21]. So you stop all the water and elements from getting it. And then you’re stabilized. And then you can move forward from that, and that gives people encouragement too that they’re actually making progress. 

Chad: Exactly. Some projects are a once and done thing, and some are phased. And then we also wrap in some kind of customized consulting services that are often either in the realm of capacity building or using a set of skills and expertise that our staff have to help them get a step down the road with something related to their building and their mission. That could be really wide ranging. Our staff bring a wide variety of experiences. Everything from very traditional preservation considerations, to capital campaign expertise, to expertise in training up the congregation on, “If you want to share your space more for community life, how do you do that?” Do you make that part of who you are? So we’ll step in and offer a few days of free consulting work [crosstalk 00:34:29].

Danielle: I think that’s probably very important too. Do you do that for the grant recipients?

Chad: Yeah. We were talking earlier about 12 slots out of this 100 plus or whatever. So they apply for the program and we award a cohort into the program, this year it’ll probably be 12, and then each of those 12 get everything I just described.

Danielle: That’s very, very cool. Well that’s very interesting. Did you have anything else that you wanted to share? I feel like we’ve covered a lot of things.

Chad: Great question. I don’t think so, I think that’s an okay place. We could follow lots of other trails with this, but-

Danielle: I think we’ve covered what you do, and why you do it, and why it’s so important to not just the congregation, but to the greater community. How can our audience get a hold of you?

Chad: Great question. Partners for Sacred Places is the organization I work for, and we have a website, which is sacredplaces.org. You can visit that website and learn about the array of things we do from training to consulting, to grant making. The program that I direct is The National Fund, and it has its own stand-alone website. I should say that program is in partnership with The National Trust for Historical Preservation, which is the largest national preservation organization. The website for The National Fund is fundforsacredplaces.org. My phone number is on the Partners website, my email is on both websites. I’m always glad to talk to people more about this program.

Danielle: Yes, thank you for coming in and speaking with me. I enjoyed it.

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